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  • #16
    Re: Water heater choices

    I am not knocking Rinnai, I just heard that they had problems several years back from our guys.

    From a engineering standpoint, I would believe a home with a lot of hot water usage would come out better with a larger tank type (as far a gas consumption goes) than with a tankless.

    At my home, its just my wife and I , I could see a benefit to going tankless but being a engineer, I have a re-circ line on a 75 gallon tank. I know it's overkill in a big way, but I like to turn on a faucet and have instant hot water no matter the location.

    Regards,

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    • #17
      Oh come on now, I guess I shouldn't of used the gun smiley

      By no means will I always be right in my thinking for every situation, and I've been wrong many times in my field of expertise.


      Using Rinnai is the top of the crop product in regards to tankless. If people were realistic in thinking along these lines BEFORE they called and wasted my time, I might ease up, but I always get the price-shopper thats always trying to hedge down to a water heater changeout, maybe a skosh more. You're in DC so you know the climate issues that we have in the east. It's turbulent at best and those large ones will accomodate the greediest of hot water users.

      If you are installing 8-13 gpm tankless units with the ability to overcome that substantial degree rise needed to get to 105 and above, that's good. That however costs a considerable amount of money, especially when I get a constant dribble of customers calling me wanting me to install a bosch tankless that is around $549, not including any venting.

      I got to remind anyone that reads my statements, please remember that the consumer is dumb as rocks for the majority of plumbing systems. They can sit on a toilet all their life and use it and never know how it operates. All they know is it takes the bad stuff away.

      I'm driving points home on opposition of "tankless is for everyone" attitude that offers a generalized protection of the consumer.

      And PC, can you imagine the frustration of those property owners that went with this technology and had to spend twice? Those "other" brands are the problem, I don't care about the names. I get these questions on forums where XXXX tankless units are no longer made or "can't get through to customer support" situations.

      This sucks for me as I can't answer the questions to help them as I'm as useless as **** on a fish when they've bought a product that doesn't provide the back end support.

      You know from your experience with A.O. Smith/State (which is considered tremendous knowledge in the matters of PowerVent operation) that those you deal with on water heater tank ownership,

      most if not all people do NOT maintain a regular maintenance schedule of their heaters. Put it in and forget it.

      According to the mfg. specs of most of these tankless units, you have to put them on maintenance rituals or they do not perform. Same as a tank, just not as forgiving since the numbers are so crucial to follow a savings ratio over it's predecessor.

      My voice in these matters are solely because I would have to lie to my customers, not divulge the facts, work at a cheaper rate of pay to get these units installed and let time be my out the door excuse.

      I have to let customers know what to expect on these units, how they have to maintain them unlike the way they did on tank heaters all those years prior and that the serviceabilty is non-existent in the area. << This will be this way for years until the market brings these in full force.

      I can see a new house, new tankless, years later they need a new one and come in and replace an apple for an apple. Water conservation got thrown out the window when everyone wanted a car wash for a shower, now we have the ability to take an endless shower because the hot water is now there to do it.

      Am I being unreasonable in being subjective to this when the average consumer is numb to anything but buy it/use it/break it/fix or buy a new one?????

      I am a plumber ya know.....I see the cause and effect of plumbing problems every single day. A leak off a fitting on a heater that went for years, not days. A toilet with a leaking tank to bowl bolt with a bowl catching the drip that's been there so long under the back of the toilet that the dog uses it as a secondary source of water.

      Leaking spouts at faucets that even though I'm there...they won't fix them because they don't see the harm in them leaking. Common. I just don't feel comfortable recommending anything that's going to have that same customer calling me every time it breaks down (might takes years but they will call me first, it's guaranteed) and I'm sucked into NO supply house in my area supplying repair parts. NONE.

      Here's a similarity >>>>> Danze or Pegasus faucet repair parts, even Price Pfister....they are real hard to find parts in the best of plumbing supply houses.
      Last edited by DUNBAR PLUMBING; 11-13-2007, 06:27 PM.
      Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

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      • #18
        Re: Water heater choices

        Dunbar,

        You dont have to sell me on your point of view. I agree with most everything you said.

        On the other end of the spectrum, one could argue that one could put in three tank type heaters for the cost of one tankless. I change out my tanks every 10 years no matter what(personal quirk of mine).

        I am not a big fan of the tankless from a energy use standpoint, not all but most of the people I have talked to in residential applications actually see a increase in the gas bills, some say it is significant.

        It would be hard for me to "push" these in the residential marketplace as well.

        Regards,

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Water heater choices

          as i stated earlyer mine propane went from 100# a year (tank) to 100# every 9-10 months.(tankless)
          9/11/01, never forget.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Water heater choices

            I must have the worst luck with water heaters. Everybody seems to like the ones I've had trouble with.

            The last time I used A.O. Smith Heaters, I couldn't put nipples in top unless I chiseled out a larger hole. They seem to have some problems lining things up.

            The last time I put in Bradford White heaters, the thermostats caused me to go back a couple of times to mop up water.

            And don't get me started on State. OK, I'll start:

            They used to be called State Stove, I believe, and when I was working at Boise Cascade, one out of three failed the pressure test of the system.

            But then they seemed to have a heyday. They came out with the Sand Hog element and were guaranteeing it five years even under lime. Then the polybutylene tank. Those might help, but if someone dry-fires them, they can cause a very dangerous condition. I've walked in on them blowing steam.

            When I bought my "lifetime" State water heater, I thought I would never have to buy another one. It lasted seven years. States were no longer being sold in my area anywhere, and the supply house replaced it with a standard American fifty-gallon heater.

            But when they came out with those itty-bitty elements that wouldn't last a year, I wound up going around replacing them with better ones out of pocket. No wonder they won't sell them around here anymore.

            I've never had a problem with Rheem, and I continue to use them. My own Rheem has been in for about seven or eight years, in an area where most water heaters need to have the lime cleaned out about every three years, I've never had to clean it yet.

            I've had worse luck with the point-of-use heaters - I can't seem to get good elements for them, and the ones they come with don't last long at all in the heavy lime conditions. But I have yet to have a Rheem fail within warranty period.

            I'm too leery of tankless to try them. Our local courthouse has an A.O. Smith high-recovery heater with separate tank and the $1,000 coil on the top of the heater needs to be replace once per year because it gets packed with lime. I can't help but wonder if tankless will have similar problems in this area.

            Maybe I'll get brave one of these days. But considering what I've read about the "savings," I think I'll try to steer customers away from them.

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            • #21
              Re: Water heater choices

              Rheem is our small use water heater of choice.


              Oh yeah, the State water heater is a A.O. Smith just like the Ruud is a Rheem.

              Regards,
              Last edited by biscuit; 11-13-2007, 08:43 PM.

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              • #22
                Re: Water heater choices

                I'm glad to open such a lively thread ! Personally I have installed SEVERAL Rinnai tankless heaters ! LOVE THEM , However , I have moved away from them because of cost , venting issues , etc... Now I'm back to a more " old school " belief . Tank type are tried and true . AND I really am happy with the
                Bradford White !

                CPlumb

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Water heater choices

                  Originally posted by CPlumb View Post
                  I'm glad to open such a lively thread ! Personally I have installed SEVERAL Rinnai tankless heaters ! LOVE THEM , However , I have moved away from them because of cost , venting issues , etc... Now I'm back to a more " old school " belief . Tank type are tried and true . AND I really am happy with the
                  Bradford White !

                  CPlumb
                  What's the venting issues you are having.The combination vents are allowing plumbers to vent up to 40' horizontally without affecting performance.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Water heater choices

                    The trouble with Rinnai in my area is the max output model (180K btu) is 5.3 gpm @ 60 incoming water temp, they're actually much cheaper than most tankless models that size(through Ferguson, Roberts friend prompted me to call them).
                    Rheem/Paloma makes a 7.4 gpm model (199K btu), I've installed a good 8-10 in just the last year and the only complaint I got was the last one I did.
                    He was daunted when the flow restrictor kicked on after opening two shower valves, a lav, kitchen sink and finally a 6gpm roman tub spout on his jacuzzi.
                    He called me two days later to apologize, he'd stressed out prematurely and realized afterwards how unrealistic it would be to need more than 4 fixtures on at once. (the fact that I'd told him he could use up to 3 fixtures at a time, I had to remind him).
                    The primary motive for the recent installs is the tax/local gas co incentives, which are over at years end.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Water heater choices

                      How do you guys feel about Rheem's marathon series? I've installed quite a few and all my customers are very happy with them
                      Buy cheap, buy twice.

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                      • #26
                        Re: Water heater choices

                        Originally posted by DuckButter View Post
                        The trouble with Rinnai in my area is the max output model (180K btu) is 5.3 gpm @ 60 incoming water temp, they're actually much cheaper than most tankless models that size(through Ferguson, Roberts friend prompted me to call them).
                        Rheem/Paloma makes a 7.4 gpm model (199K btu), I've installed a good 8-10 in just the last year and the only complaint I got was the last one I did.
                        He was daunted when the flow restrictor kicked on after opening two shower valves, a lav, kitchen sink and finally a 6gpm roman tub spout on his jacuzzi.
                        He called me two days later to apologize, he'd stressed out prematurely and realized afterwards how unrealistic it would be to need more than 4 fixtures on at once. (the fact that I'd told him he could use up to 3 fixtures at a time, I had to remind him).
                        The primary motive for the recent installs is the tax/local gas co incentives, which are over at years end.

                        Look into the Noritz water heaters , they have a broad range of flow rates.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Water heater choices

                          Originally posted by gear junkie View Post
                          How do you guys feel about Rheem's marathon series? I've installed quite a few and all my customers are very happy with them
                          Use a lot of rheem tanks, and for a residential application, I would be willing to try a Marathon if I wanted electric.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Water heater choices

                            Originally posted by biscuit View Post
                            Look into the Noritz water heaters , they have a broad range of flow rates.
                            Sounds good, what about the price ranges compared to the others?
                            Bottom line, I won't be installing any tankless's if the customer can't afford it.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Water heater choices

                              Originally posted by gear junkie View Post
                              How do you guys feel about Rheem's marathon series? I've installed quite a few and all my customers are very happy with them
                              I just installed my first Marathon water heater yesterday. I have to say I was not terribly impressed. The local power company is pushing them for the energy savings factor, but when I compared the energy sticker off the ten year old Rheem water heater I took out and the new one, the savings came out to $4 a year. At an over $200 price difference, it will take over fifty years to recoup his investment.
                              Now hopefully the plastic tank will last a lot longer than a metal tank, but that is hard to say. Also, the connections at the top of tank felt very weak to me.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Water heater choices

                                Originally posted by biscuit View Post
                                Look into the Noritz water heaters , they have a broad range of flow rates.
                                Right, I looked into them, 8.4 gpm which appears to run at around just over $2K, 13.2 gpm for $4K.
                                Looks like the parent company is Toyota, if they're anything like the cars, they cost alot and run forever.
                                I'm hard pressed to sell homeowners on the value of Rheem's 7.4 gpm at half the cost of the Noritz 8.3.
                                Just like cell phone providers years ago, maybe one day these mfg's will figure out that a more realistic price will bring them to the mainstream.

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