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  • #16
    Re: Pro Plumbing Discussion

    Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
    To the newer guys what you may be missing is the idea of this forum was for pros to talk to each other about the trade. There is another forum where DIY and others can ask their questions. Perhaps the problem is where the two are located on the board. It is not unusual for new people to post in the top forum on a new site.

    Mark
    Good point Mark. I can move the true pro forums to the bottom of the list if you guys would all be ok with that. Any objections?

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    • #17
      Re: Pro Plumbing Discussion

      well, let's beat another dead horse.

      could someone please explain to me how not helping JQ Public with some diection is going to "preserve the plumbing trade" or by giving a bit of advice/help is going to comdemn the trade to doom and destruction? this seems to be dog's dogma and battle cry.

      if i EVER get that crotchety & mean i hope someone puts a bullet in my head, or takes my computer away.

      just my $.02 before taxes

      steve
      In the never ending struggle to keep the water flowing.... The Poo Poo Cowboy rides again!!!

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Pro Plumbing Discussion

        That's definitely a good idea. If "Ask the Plumbing Experts" is at the top of the list, and people see it first, then that's where they'll make their posts.

        Once they see "Professional Plumbing Discussion", and their question is about plumbing, they'll look no further for something more appropriate.

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        • #19
          Re: Pro Plumbing Discussion

          Originally posted by stxrus View Post
          could someone please explain to me how not helping JQ Public with some diection is going to "preserve the plumbing trade" or by giving a bit of advice/help is going to comdemn the trade to doom and destruction? this seems to be dog's dogma and battle cry.
          Well... I'm sure we've all heard the story about the highly paid whatever hitting whatever he's looking at with a hammer and then charging his high fees for the solution. Asked to itemize the bill... the expensive bit is the "knowing where to hit".

          That's the idea here, and I respect that for the most part. People are well paid for knowing what they do and appying that knowledge with skill.

          I think though, that the people looking on the Net for a way to do something themselves are going to find that info whether they find it here or elsewhere. Making it difficult for them here won't stop them and certainly won't get them on the phone to hire a plumber rather than continuing to look.

          I've seen plenty of issues here where the solution is to try x, y, and z... and if that doesn't work then to call a plumber. I think that's appropriate.

          There's plenty of things people can do themselves and really, if they're willing to look into it then let them give it a shot. There's always going to be more complicated things that require a pro, but helping people with the simple stuff will only help them better appreciate what the pros are capable of when things get to that point.

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          • #20
            Re: Pro Plumbing Discussion

            I feel that as a web community there is value in people knowing at least something about the situation they run into. I agree with Dog in that home owners shouldn't be DIYing it and trying to solve their problems by themselves. There is always value in understanding the situation you are in and what a plumber will be doing for you money. Now trying to do something you are not qualified to handle usually screws things up worse than they were before.

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            • #21
              Re: Pro Plumbing Discussion

              but how it going to save or destroy thee plumbing trade?

              i agree that people are looking to save some $$ and there are a lot of things a non pro can do.

              i get at least 2 calls a week from tire kickers that want to know how much it's gonna cost to open their blockage. i give a ball park and they say they'll call back. some do, most don't. some call back after retining a drum machine (minimum 4 hours here), drag it home, go back to the store for gloves, eye protection, etc and attempt to fix "it" themselves. some call back and i go out and knock the job out (quickly AND professionally, i hope) and they are happy campers. sometimes they break or damage something and that has to be repaired.

              you said, "I've seen plenty of issues here where the solution is to try x, y, and z... and if that doesn't work then to call a plumber. I think that's appropriate.

              There's plenty of things people can do themselves and really, if they're willing to look into it then let them give it a shot. There's always going to be more complicated things that require a pro, but helping people with the simple stuff will only help them better appreciate what the pros are capable of when things get to that point." and that is MY point exactly.

              sorry for the rant, but this is really a bore and i shouldn't let it get under my skin. maybe i'll just learn to sidestep the poop lying on the forum floor.

              steve
              In the never ending struggle to keep the water flowing.... The Poo Poo Cowboy rides again!!!

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Pro Plumbing Discussion

                I'm My Father's Son. Back in The 50s, Dad always stopped The Car to lend a hand. To this day I do,as the rest of My Family does. I give what I feel is good advice here and elsewhere. On a welding forum ,I'll be looking at some Kids welds,telling Him to crank up the amps and slow down. There are times I won't help ,when I see a do a DIY over Their head,about to create a health problem for their neighborhood, and family. Just My take,not out to ruffle any feathers
                or fur.
                I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Pro Plumbing Discussion

                  Originally posted by stxrus View Post
                  well, let's beat another dead horse.

                  could someone please explain to me how not helping JQ Public with some diection is going to "preserve the plumbing trade" or by giving a bit of advice/help is going to comdemn the trade to doom and destruction? this seems to be dog's dogma and battle cry.

                  if i EVER get that crotchety & mean i hope someone puts a bullet in my head, or takes my computer away.

                  just my $.02 before taxes

                  steve
                  I believe you have missed the point. The Pro Plumbing Discussion Forum was added at the request of some of the members so they would have a forum where they could discuss business and trade issues without DIY and others asking plumbing questions. Some did not want to sort through the DIY threads to find threads related to trade and business questions. I believe dogs post has more to do with the fact those who wanted a seperate forum (dog did not) have now created two Ask the Expert Forum as they are responding to DIY questions in the from they requested be for the pros only.

                  Mark
                  "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                  I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Pro Plumbing Discussion

                    i give advise all the time to both new customers and established ones.

                    just over the weekend i walked a recently divorced lady through cleaning her air gap.

                    the last thing i want to do is go there for a 5 minute repair and have to charge her. even if it's only a 1/2 hour charge.

                    she fixed it and now the next time there is something more serious, she will call me back, just like she has for the last 7 years.

                    same goes for a simple toilet stoppage. it never fails that a simple plunger will fix 95% of basic toilet stoppages. i give them the opportunity to plunge it themselves. they try, they fail and i show up. typically within a few seconds, it's fixed. they are always surprised i was able to do it. they never complain, because i always gave them the opportunity to fix it themselves.

                    to me helping out an established customer or a stranger has always been good business. never a loss of business because of it.

                    now over the internet, i don't expect to get business from it. but just as i might give advise, so do others. we all learn from this exchange of info, even if it wasn't directed towards us.

                    if it wasn't for the exchange of info and trying new ideas, there would be no k-60 impressionator thanks mark

                    rick.
                    phoebe it is

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Pro Plumbing Discussion

                      Dog has a good point. I have a very hard time not posting help to people who ask. At the same time, I encourage them to stay away from things that are a bit over their heads. Chances are these people are never going to hire a plumber no matter how deep they get into a problem.

                      I seek out plumbing forums and often post responses to problems. Yesterday, for example, I was in a thread where a senior member of a forum suggested that the HO get rid of that "gray thing" on their well system. I told them not to. The backflow preventer is on the system for a reason.

                      I tried to talk another member of a forum out of pouring their own lead joint on a closet flange, to no avail. They were determined and enlisted the help of a RL plumber. I may help on a forum, but I don't help HOs do their own work in real life. This guy was crowing about how good the job he did was.

                      The single thing that stands out the most in plumbing forums is the obvious fact that most of the people trying to do their own work are totally clueless about what they're doing. They really shouldn't be attempting it themselves.

                      In real life, I have had several customers lately who attempted to do their own work, and I had to bail them out. On one, I had bid a $58 minimum technical service to tighten a leak under a pedestal basin. That one took two hours because everything imaginable had been done wrong - from setting the pedestal in a big puddle of caulk to leaving the nipple a couple of inches back inside the wall to no pipe dope on the threaded tailpiece, to using cardboard with lag screws to anchor into sheet rock. Truly unbelievable.

                      On another, it was a more simple repair - the connections on the pull-out faucet were not even finger tight. The cabinet shelf was completely destroyed, the new furnace in the basement had been flooded, and there was water coming out of the basement walls. All this in a house only a few years old - but look at the money they saved!

                      I offered to clear the drain on their tub that was slow, but the lady didn't like the price, and elected to put up with it. Also, the flex connections on the cheap kitchen faucet had been badly twisted. Cheap, cheap, cheap. Welcome to the wonderful new world of plumbing.

                      At the house where I had the basin problems, they turned down the job of installing the kitchen faucet, electing to not spend that much money and let the same moron install it who messed up the basin so badly. Cheap, cheap, cheap. At the same time, they were installing tile on all their floors and using a pro installer because they didn't want to mess that up - and I do mean all their floors. They wanted to get the house all fixed up before moving into it, and according to the lady had gone through a lot to get that far - going to the only supply house in town to get a toilet and sink and finding the pedestal cracked and a tank and bowl that didn't go together. So they trucked up to Homey in Idaho Falls and got another set. But look at all the money they saved!

                      I learned my lesson: from now on, it's bid it as an owner-supplied basin and tear it down to itty bits and re-assemble it. It would have taken half as long. Never assume the HO knows what they're doing.

                      I agree that the DIY threads should be at the top because otherwise there's no way for a new amateur poster to realize they aren't in the right thread. On some forums, there's a section that's hidden to new posters until they've made a few posts and it might be a good idea to do that here and only allow pros in.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Pro Plumbing Discussion

                        Originally posted by Plumber Rick
                        they try, they fail and i show up. typically within a few seconds, it's fixed
                        Isn't it funny how that works? I often think that what I do is relatively easy and most anyone could do it if they tried, but then it's brought home to me that, even with hand-holding instructions, they still can't accomplish what I can. Plumbing really is an acquired skill. Once, when I was very young and very helpful, I worked with an HO to do some of his work. I taught him how to solder - something I would never consider today - and when I went back to look at his work I was appalled at how pitifully he had routed the pipes - around in circles.

                        That was a lesson well-learned. Today, I am far more careful about giving advice to people in things that might be dangerous. Our local plumbing shop - Standard Plumbing - had at one time been telling their employees that they should not give advice to amateurs because if it went badly they could be sued. But once Homey and Lowe's moved into the area, they got back into doing it full-time.

                        The real joke is that they hire people off the street with an IQ of about 40 and the fools go there and ask their advice as if they were some kind of pro. Some of the advice they give is pretty funny.
                        but just as i might give advise, so do others. we all learn from this exchange of info, even if it wasn't directed towards us.
                        That's why I'm checking out the forums in the first place - I constantly learn a lot. One of the things I learn is how many hacks are out there giving bad advice. But there are constantly things I've never heard of or seen in this little one-horse town and I'd like to learn the ins and outs of things before I run into them for the first time, such as defective parts or poorly-designed equipment.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Pro Plumbing Discussion

                          Ok Guys... hows that. I labeled all the forums except the Ask the Experts forum as Pros Only. Any tweaks? Should this help without scaring people away?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Pro Plumbing Discussion

                            josh, personally, i think it will not work.

                            i think the open forum will get all the attention and the others will die off.

                            it's also going to more difficult to research old post as they are now going to be in at least 2 different forum windows.

                            time will tell

                            rick.
                            phoebe it is

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                            • #29
                              Re: Pro Plumbing Discussion

                              I backed it off to just trying Mark's Suggestion. we can always switch the order later if we want to.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Pro Plumbing Discussion

                                Originally posted by Josh View Post
                                I feel that as a web community there is value in people knowing at least something about the situation they run into. I agree with Dog in that home owners shouldn't be DIYing it and trying to solve their problems by themselves. There is always value in understanding the situation you are in and what a plumber will be doing for you money. Now trying to do something you are not qualified to handle usually screws things up worse than they were before.
                                Josh, correct me if I am wrong, but didn't you recently do a DIY project and post a question or two here? Seems a bit contradictory to your above message. Personally, if some want their own forum, let them start one of their own. I think there might be quite a howl at Ridgid if this forum starts getting split up. Besides, how are you going to determine who is a real PRO? In my area, if you own a pipewrench, a saw, and a can of glue you can paint a sign on your truck and you are a plumber. I will venture a guess that I am not alone.

                                Jim

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