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Tankless or Not?

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  • Tankless or Not?

    1
    Last edited by BobsPlumbing; 03-10-2010, 07:03 PM.

  • #2
    Re: Tankless or Not?

    New construction yes, Older home only if you plan on staying there a while. Why , they last longer and save money.
    THE GLASS IS ALWAYS HALF FULL

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Tankless or Not?

      As soon as tankless MFG's come to earth with the prices, I see a huge benefit.
      I mention them on almost any W/H call thats not an emergency.
      I get maybe one in 10 to get one.
      Usually the sticker shock forces me to pick them up off the floor.
      Then I gave them what sounds like a humane price in comparison for the usual.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Tankless or Not?

        Originally posted by DuckButter View Post
        As soon as tankless MFG's come to earth with the prices, I see a huge benefit.
        I mention them on almost any W/H call thats not an emergency.
        I get maybe one in 10 to get one.
        Usually the sticker shock forces me to pick them up off the floor.
        Then I gave them what sounds like a humane price in comparison for the usual.
        I always tell the home owner they are suppose to last three times as long as a tank. Apples to apples they are less money in the long run.
        THE GLASS IS ALWAYS HALF FULL

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Tankless or Not?

          Originally posted by Crappy days View Post
          I always tell the home owner they are suppose to last three times as long as a tank. Apples to apples they are less money in the long run.
          Be careful with that...the fine print on the 10 yr warranties are on the exchanger only in most cases.
          Considering the fact that most PV heaters only come with a max 6 yr because of the electronics, careful not to paint yourself into a corner where a customer calls and says, "But you said it would last longer than this.".
          I know some MFG's used to boast a 20 year life expectancy, but if you think of how many older state W/H's you replace after 15-20 years and how many last even 8 now...I wouldn't bet on tankless's having better lifespans now, especially where no-one boasts that life expectancy any more.
          Barring Noritz, I think...which comes with a 20 yr...and a sticker to match it.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Tankless or Not?

            Originally posted by DuckButter View Post
            Be careful with that...the fine print on the 10 yr warranties are on the exchanger only in most cases.
            Considering the fact that most PV heaters only come with a max 6 yr because of the electronics, careful not to paint yourself into a corner where a customer calls and says, "But you said it would last longer than this.".
            I know some MFG's used to boast a 20 year life expectancy, but if you think of how many older state W/H's you replace after 15-20 years and how many last even 8 now...I wouldn't bet on tankless's having better lifespans now, especially where no-one boasts that life expectancy any more.
            Barring Noritz, I think...which comes with a 20 yr...and a sticker to match it.
            Noritz is the only unit I install at the moment.
            THE GLASS IS ALWAYS HALF FULL

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Tankless or Not?

              By tankless are we talking tankless coil as in the copper ones immersed in the boiler.? If so most codes will not allow them as the code clearly states that you must provide sufficient hot water to supply all fixtures served (sfu) Most residential tankless heaters are rated between 2 1/2 and 3 gpm. Not nearly enough to supply an average home.
              If we're talking indirect heaters (super-store, amtrol ect.) If the indirect is coupled to a high effiency boiler (with the extra capacity to handle the indirect) there is no more efficient way to make hot water. Now you can argue solar and if you are in the right area of the country I'll agree but you have to do some carefull cost vs. payback calculations first. If the boiler is not efficient (and I don't just mean combustion efficiency) then the indirct could indeed end up costing more to operate.
              Incidentally if you look into Direct fired (Rinnai ect) I'll bet you find their efficiency if better than everything else
              sigpic

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Tankless or Not?

                Originally posted by JCsPlumbing
                Interesting. Although ground water temps are higher I have measured temps at taps that stay around 50 degrees in the winter for my area. Makes it hard for me to recommend tankless based on manufacturers tables. And some of my local plumbers (the ones I trust) have told me they have actually taken them out. So currently I'm still recommending a quality tank heater with an extra anode rod. I size it for maximum usage in the winter time. I then tell them to invest the money they would have leftover. If tankless prices come down I might have to rethink but I've also read some posts that people used the same amount or MORE gas than a traditional tank. What's been your experience? What tankless models do you think to be the best? I'm Rinnai certified but am always open to improvement.
                I have installed around 12 or 13 6.9 units for my churches buildings . Have been replacing 200 thousands BTU commercial units. The only reason they had the commercial unit was for the baptism fonts. Depending on the application they are awesome. For your regular two bath house its really a coin toss to me.
                THE GLASS IS ALWAYS HALF FULL

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Tankless or Not?

                  Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                  Incidentally if you look into Direct fired (Rinnai ect) I'll bet you find their efficiency if better than everything else
                  Stndrd tank types run 20-25% less efficient...which is where I come up with a round figure of 30% less fuel for the math with customers, considering stdby heat loss as well.
                  For a family of 6, good news.
                  A single bachelor...not good news.
                  I do Superstor indirects also...they hold temps like ya read about.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Tankless or Not?

                    Love Super Store. Best tank on the market today.
                    sigpic

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Tankless or Not?

                      living in canada i have found a hugh problem in winter with incoming water temps, plus the low gpms of most units. most around 4.5 gpm are too low for larger shower installs and twinning is too much. i noticed that companies like renaii have halved their exchanger warrenty's here from 10-5 years
                      how is it that so many answers are in the instructions

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Tankless or Not?

                        i personally do not like tankless in 90% of the installations i've seen.

                        along with the fact that 90%of them are not hooked up correctly.

                        today i saw a tagagi 185,000 btu hooked up with a 1/2'' i.d. range connector.

                        not to mention no isolation valves or flushing bypass.

                        and the real kicker was the type b vent instead of the category 3 stainless venting.

                        this is very typical to 90% of the installed units i see.

                        the money savings are not what they claimed they are. the heaters require annual or sooner chemical flushing.

                        my 40 gallon heater is 18 years old now. never runs out of hot water except when joey fills up the jacuzzi tub

                        tell me a tankless is going to last 18 years with little to no flushing. by the way my monthly gas bill is $15.00 except for the winter when joey likes some heat

                        show me the savings and i'll install the unit i bought 3 years ago for a trial run. now add a recirc system and the system is much, much more costly to operate.

                        meanwhile with all the screwed up installs, i'm surprised nothing has burned down.

                        the numbers don't add up

                        actually they add up to a whole lot of money

                        run far far away from a tankless. even the tankless sales rep told me off the record, "tankless is for tree huggers"

                        rick.
                        phoebe it is

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Tankless or Not?

                          Originally posted by JCsPlumbing
                          Thanks Rick. That's the same conclusions that I have came too. But I get beat in the head by homeowners asking me about it all the time. I guess because they have seen them on HGTV. You should see the disappointment when I tell them I can't recommend them for their application. I also think that some people that have them change their use behavior to accommadate their decision.
                          My electrician buddy just did a house where he told me they had 10 Rinnai units hooked together he had to wire! Probably could have given them all the hot water they want with 2 properly sized tank models.
                          what size of a house needs 10 tankless heaters? does it do snow melting and hydronic heating too?

                          that's got to be close to 2 million btu's.
                          a pool heater is approx 400,000 btu's.

                          more info please

                          rick.
                          phoebe it is

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Tankless or Not?

                            Originally posted by JCsPlumbing
                            Thanks Rick. That's the same conclusions that I have came too. But I get beat in the head by homeowners asking me about it all the time. I guess because they have seen them on HGTV. You should see the disappointment when I tell them I can't recommend them for their application. I also think that some people that have them change their use behavior to accommadate their decision.
                            My electrician buddy just did a house where he told me they had 10 Rinnai units hooked together he had to wire! Probably could have given them all the hot water they want with 2 properly sized tank models.
                            Have seen this done in a few restaurants I do service work for. The selling point is they will never run out of hot water, or if a unit needs service they can just bi-pass that unit. I haven't seen 10 in a row , but have seen 8.
                            THE GLASS IS ALWAYS HALF FULL

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Tankless or Not?

                              I think the big problem with tankless water heaters is that most customers, and quite a few plumbers, are very uninformed about them. I find myself talking more people out of a tankless water heater then I do selling them. Not every house needs a tankless water heater.

                              Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                              what size of a house needs 10 tankless heaters? does it do snow melting and hydronic heating too?

                              that's got to be close to 2 million btu's.
                              a pool heater is approx 400,000 btu's.

                              more info please

                              rick.
                              I could see this house needing ten or more tankless heaters.
                              http://abcnews.go.com/Business/Gadge...4150486&page=1

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