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  • Faulty Propress joint w/pics

    So, My dad is a plumber, and he still works for the outfit I did my apprenticeship with, and has been there for 20+ years, but that is not really what this post is about, so here's the story.

    My dad calls the other day telling me that a properly installed and pressed propress joint had failed, just sort of pushed apart, on the end of the line. Luckily it was during rough in, and no water damage was done, but you gotta see these pics.

    Water pressure, in case you were wondering. 65-75psi

    My Dad talked to the Viega Rep and his response was something to the effect that this is NOT supposed to happen and that "X number of fittings are tested per batch" He(the rep) took the fitting for testing.

    Damn scary. Too damn scary

    Anyone else ever seen this?

    Greg
    Attached Files

  • #2
    Re: Faulty Propress joint w/pics

    Originally posted by glkearns View Post
    So, My dad is a plumber, and he still works for the outfit I did my apprenticeship with, and has been there for 20+ years, but that is not really what this post is about, so here's the story.

    My dad calls the other day telling me that a properly installed and pressed propress joint had failed, just sort of pushed apart, on the end of the line. Luckily it was during rough in, and no water damage was done, but you gotta see these pics.

    Water pressure, in case you were wondering. 65-75psi

    My Dad talked to the Viega Rep and his response was something to the effect that this is NOT supposed to happen and that "X number of fittings are tested per batch" He(the rep) took the fitting for testing.

    Damn scary. Too damn scary

    Anyone else ever seen this?

    Greg
    greg, nothing to test.

    i can already see that the pipe/tubing was not pushed all the way in when it was crimped. look at the second photo and you'll see the crimp end. also i don't see anywhere with a marker/ sharpie to show proper depth insertion.

    by the way, the tubing cutter rollers are sticking/ tight.
    last but not least, you can't butt a crimp fitting to fitting. the tee branch to the 90 is too close.

    truthfully, from what i see posted, photos, is user error.

    the sharpie is very important to use. just like how many times have you seen a soldered joint that wasn't pushed all the way in when soldered. i've see it more times than not.

    rick.
    phoebe it is

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Faulty Propress joint w/pics

      greg, here is a link for the basics.


      7/8'' is the insertion depth for 3/4'' copper.

      i need to look in my big propress book for the minimum fitting to fitting spacing. i couldn't open the spread sheet on line.

      the xl/ xlc fittings can butt, not the normal 1/2''-2''.

      rick.
      phoebe it is

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Faulty Propress joint w/pics

        I agree with Plumber Rick. if you do not mark the tubing as you are fitting things together, you will never know if the tubing is fully inserted into the fitting. If you make a press and aren't seated past the sealing element (A.K.A. "o-ring"), you're most-likely going to have an issue.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Faulty Propress joint w/pics

          the clearance between two 3/4'' fittings. are 5/8'' clear. of course this was not the joint that failed (90 and tee), but the manufacturer has an installation standard that needs to be followed. a sharpie is the least expensive tool in the tool box and in this case, one of the most important.

          just trying to defend a time tested system. i'm sure with some closer look, you'll see my points.

          rick.
          phoebe it is

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Faulty Propress joint w/pics

            1/2", 3/4", 1" as well as 2 1/2", 3" and 4" XL can be 0" clearance.
            1 1/4" = 7/16"
            1 1/2" = 5/8"
            2" =3/4"

            XLC FITTINGS = 5/8"

            This was the latest info I had on file.

            Dave.. can you get the PDF posted for others to see.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Faulty Propress joint w/pics

              Like I said, these are my dad's photos, his problem, and I have not seen the actual fittings, I noticed the no sharpie mark as well, havn't talked to him about that, and I am going to take an enlarged look at the un-reduced file size to see how far down the press marking is down the pipe. Thanks everyone for all your responses. I'm buying 2 boxes of sharpies tomorrow. One for me, and one for Dad. I'm always loosing mine.

              Greg

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Faulty Propress joint w/pics

                So, can anyone post a link to minimum clearances between propress fittings. It looks like above we have 2 different opinions. I have been unsuccessful on finding anything about minimum spacing between fittings at viega.com

                Greg

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Faulty Propress joint w/pics

                  Originally posted by silverbullet View Post
                  1/2", 3/4", 1" as well as 2 1/2", 3" and 4" XL can be 0" clearance.
                  1 1/4" = 7/16"
                  1 1/2" = 5/8"
                  2" =3/4"

                  XLC FITTINGS = 5/8"

                  This was the latest info I had on file.

                  Dave.. can you get the PDF posted for others to see.
                  the numbers you listed are not the ones i have in my viega full product note book. the xl has 0'' spacing. the 1/2''- 2'' require space. unless something has changed, this is what info i have from their own pages.

                  of course once again the #'s are in my catalogue, that are in my truck.

                  now i went to the truck and here are the #'s dated revised 8-may-03

                  pipe size 1/2''=1/2'' spacing between fittings
                  3/4''= 5/8''
                  1''= 3/4''
                  1 1/4'' = 1''
                  1 1/2'' = 1 1/4''
                  2'' = 1 1/2''

                  i can't find the info on their website either.

                  but i will check at www.propresssystem.com

                  rick.
                  phoebe it is

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Faulty Propress joint w/pics

                    Why do you need space between the fittings?
                    Buy cheap, buy twice.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Faulty Propress joint w/pics

                      I'll take a shot at this one just for fun. I would guess it has to do with that when crimping a fitting onto the copper it distorts the pipe slightly. if 2 fittings are butted right up against each other there is no transition from distorted to normal. Easy way to explain it is if the crimps are too close to each other they can influence the seal on that close neighbor. Think about crimping one fitting which makes a hexagonal distortion in the pipe. Now for the next fitting turn that slightly and you get another distortion half way between. 95% of the time it will be fine but some times it could weaken the previous crimp.

                      Another reason would be that its hard to tell if you are seating the fitting properly if you are butting them up against each other.

                      Ok... so how far off was I?

                      Originally posted by gear junkie View Post
                      Why do you need space between the fittings?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Faulty Propress joint w/pics

                        sounds pretty good to me josh.

                        on the larger xl fittings/ 2.5''-4''. they use a shear ring to keep the fittings from pulling off. the shear ring bites into the copper and therefore doesn't distort the copper tubing. the tubing is still pretty much round and because of this, these xl fittings can actually be butted.

                        i don't have the info on the newer xlc fittings. so i'm not sure if this applies or not.

                        unfortunately the viega website doesn't show the info i have in my ridgid/viega notebook from years back. this even shows the fitting specs, jaws clearance required against flat walls and corners.

                        it would be nice to have the same info on line as i have in printed form.

                        another interesting fact. a propress crimped fitting can be rotated with some force to adjust the angle if necessary. the installation book states that if less than 5 degrees, nothing needs to be done. greater than 5 degrees, you need to re-crimp the joint. not replace, just re-crimp.

                        i've personally never had an issue with a joint. only 1 time did i have a drip and i re-crimped the 3/4'' joint while still under pressure and it sealed.

                        rick.
                        phoebe it is

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Faulty Propress joint w/pics

                          Josh,
                          Right on. Can you walk down and talk to Dave about posting the latest clearances. My numbers I posted came from a pdf I got from Tech about 4 months ago. I'd like to make sure we all have the right stuff with no confusions. Thanks

                          Jeff

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Faulty Propress joint w/pics

                            josh you have bin hanging out with the plumbers a little to much you are starting to think like one now
                            Charlie

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                            • #15
                              Re: Faulty Propress joint w/pics

                              Any word on the PDF? I'd like to have one on file, and one to show my dad.

                              Greg

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