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Hot / cold water mystery ? ( long winded )

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  • #31
    Re: Hot / cold water mystery ? ( long winded )

    I'll try to finish this tomorrow I dont want to go to sleep with a headache .
    EVERYBODY HAS LEAKS ,JUST DON'T HAVE YOUR"S ON MY JOB !

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Hot / cold water mystery ? ( long winded )

      Originally posted by JCsPlumbing
      You're fired. Just joking... I think we're in the right area though. Gonna be easier than repiping those water heaters. Happy Easter.
      Let's assume all of the plumbing is in correctly and all of the return lines are seperately check-valved before the get to the pumps.

      Let's also assume all single-handle fixtures are working properly.

      You may want to check if any of the shower heads have shut-offs on them. Sometimes people turn of the shower at the head and leave the valves on. The water will mix

      Another possibility is the washing machine. If they get debris in them not allowing them to close completely, you'll get a mix. The cold hose will get hot.

      And make sure no one tied into a return line to feed a fixture.
      Last edited by Pete M; 03-23-2008, 03:57 AM.
      Pete
      Drain Biz
      Articles, Videos, Industry News

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      • #33
        Re: Hot / cold water mystery ? ( long winded )

        A Watts #7 dual check has plastic checks and is not rated for hot water.

        Mark
        "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

        I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Hot / cold water mystery ? ( long winded )

          Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
          A Watts #7 dual check has plastic checks and is not rated for hot water.

          Mark
          Correct.

          Use swing checks on circ pumps.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Hot / cold water mystery ? ( long winded )

            Also, make sure pump is installed in the right direction. Pumping BACK to heater.

            Make sure return line is tied into cold inlet on heater, or directly to heater at drain. Not cold line away from heater or at manifold.

            If it's tied into cold inlet, make sure the cold line has check valves.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Hot / cold water mystery ? ( long winded )

              # 1 - There are no single handle fcts. in the house except the kit. and tub valves , the tubs have thermostatic cartridges in them , all of the risers feeding the baths can be shut down so we know no water is crossing in that bath if we shut off the ball valves feeding it

              # 2 - 100% positve that there are no crossed return lines ( visual before drywall , turned off cold feed to heaters and disconnected return lines from pumps , if a return line was tied into a cold line it would have backfed cold water to the pumps that didn't happen, made sure that there were't any checks preventing this also and with the cold valve off at the heater you only have water on the cold side of every fct. in the house )

              # 3 - we tried a swing check on the cold main first and it didn't stop it

              # 4 - We next tried a dual check on the cold main , it worked for a while

              # 5 - We have tried the pumps on the cold feed ( w/checks ) and at the heater drain with checks

              # 6 - pumps are both flowing in the correct direction

              # 7 - Never thought about it crossing at the clothes washer ( we don't install them normally )

              # 8 - We have tried it with a pump on each heater and both pumps on the first heater and then both pumps on the second heater

              # 9 - The watts # 7 that we installed is rated to 180f so it should be OK with the 130f water that is backing up into the cold

              # 10 - The Laing pumps we used do not have checks built into them but we did add them to the system

              # 11 - This is a house that we did the groundwork in ,the rough piping and the trim , so we know how its piped and what the fixtures are , its not a service job that we picked up , thats whats goofy about it

              # 12 - Last night I had my houses mixed up , this house has a TXT at the water heater ( we do the same homes for the same builder in different towns and each town has different codes .)

              # 13 - Did the exact same house in another town one month later , same piping only difference is that the second house only has one pump and no recirc line to the kit. and everything works great in it ( thats why it seems like the second pump is the culprit )

              # 14 - The circ line in the problem house for the kit. is tied into the hot line in the basement ceiling under the kit. cabinet and runs back to the water heater to its own dedicated pump nothing else is tied into it .
              Last edited by flat350; 03-23-2008, 12:01 PM.
              EVERYBODY HAS LEAKS ,JUST DON'T HAVE YOUR"S ON MY JOB !

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Hot / cold water mystery ? ( long winded )

                Originally posted by flat350 View Post
                # 1 - There are no single handle fcts. in the house except the kit. and tub valves , the tubs have thermostatic cartridges in them , all of the risers feeding the baths can be shut down so we know no water is crossing in that bath if we shut off the ball valves feeding it

                # 2 - 100% positve that there are no crossed return lines ( visual before drywall , turned off cold feed to heaters and disconnected return lines from pumps , if a return line was tied into a cold line it would have backfed cold water to the pumps that didn't happen, made sure that there were't any checks preventing this also and with the cold valve off at the heater you only have water on the cold side of every fct. in the house )

                # 3 - we tried a swing check on the cold main first and it didn't stop it

                # 4 - We next tried a dual check on the cold main , it worked for a while

                # 5 - We have tried the pumps on the cold feed ( w/checks ) and at the heater drain with checks

                # 6 - pumps are both flowing in the correct direction

                # 7 - Never thought about it crossing at the clothes washer ( we don't install them normally )

                # 8 - We have tried it with a pump on each heater and both pumps on the first heater and then both pumps on the second heater

                # 9 - The watts # 7 that we installed is rated to 180f so it should be OK with the 130f water that is backing up into the cold

                # 10 - The Laing pumps we used do not have checks built into them but we did add them to the system

                # 11 - This is a house that we did the groundwork in ,the rough piping and the trim , so we know how its piped and what the fixtures are , its not a service job that we picked up , thats whats goofy about it

                # 12 - Last night I had my houses mixed up , this house has a TXT at the water heater ( we do the same homes for the same builder in different towns and each town has different codes .)

                # 13 - Did the exact same house in another town one month later , same piping only difference is that the second house only has one pump and no recirc line to the kit. and everything works great in it ( thats why it seems like the second pump is the culprit )

                # 14 - The circ line in the problem house for the kit. is tied into the hot line in the basement ceiling under the kit. cabinet and runs back to the water heater to its own dedicated pump nothing else is tied into it .
                Has anyone tried isolating the washing machine by shutting off the laundry bibbs?
                Pete
                Drain Biz
                Articles, Videos, Industry News

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Hot / cold water mystery ? ( long winded )

                  Flat350,

                  Do you solemnly and sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence you shall give shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

                  If so, please answer these questions:

                  The hot water comes out of only the kitchen faucet? Nowhere else?

                  You have a circ pump at water heater that tees off kitchen hot water line in ceiling underneathe? Pump serves only kitchen sink?

                  This 5-1/2 bath house has only 1 kitchen sink?

                  This only happens after being stagnate for several hours?

                  How long does the hot/warm water come out of cold side before turns back to all cold?

                  It does turn back to all cold, right?

                  Where exactly is the Watts 007 installed?


                  No further questions at this time Your Honor

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Hot / cold water mystery ? ( long winded )

                    I second the idea of a cross connection . Clothes washer / dishwasher or the affected kitchen sink tap.

                    very interesting.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Hot / cold water mystery ? ( long winded )

                      I finally read enough to list some questions, but the talented Mr Crack beat me to 'em.
                      The fact that a double check resolved the issue for 5 months tells us something.

                      I think both Pete and JC may have the solution, it would seem that thermal expansion has worked it's way through a fixtures seals over the time the double check was installed...laundry valves are a common culprit.

                      I'd ask the owner to shut off the laundry, & cold shutoff at the kitchen for a night and see what results that yields...also consider the possibility that the sink faucet itself is allowing backflow under unusually high pressure from the hot side.

                      Another thought, the recirc line was added after the finish, so I assume this isn't likely, but could the recirc line be in contact with the cold line to the kitchen at any point?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Hot / cold water mystery ? ( long winded )

                        Absolutly correct the Ducky. Anytime you close off the hot water system through use of a check-valve, as the water expands it has no place to go, so it takes the path of least resistance which would be up the cold water line. A Thermal expansion tank will undoubtly fix the problem.
                        sigpic

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Hot / cold water mystery ? ( long winded )

                          Originally posted by DuckButter View Post
                          I finally read enough to list some questions, but the talented Mr Crack beat me to 'em.
                          The fact that a double check resolved the issue for 5 months tells us something.

                          I think both Pete and JC may have the solution, it would seem that thermal expansion has worked it's way through a fixtures seals over the time the double check was installed...laundry valves are a common culprit.

                          I'd ask the owner to shut off the laundry, & cold shutoff at the kitchen for a night and see what results that yields...also consider the possibility that the sink faucet itself is allowing backflow under unusually high pressure from the hot side.

                          Another thought, the recirc line was added after the finish, so I assume this isn't likely, but could the recirc line be in contact with the cold line to the kitchen at any point?
                          I told him this a while back and he made it seem that i was nuts for even suggesting it. I say once he figures it out he can come back and tell us what he figured out!! He doesn't seem to want to try any of our suggestions.
                          ________
                          Honda Super Cub specifications
                          Last edited by TOPDAWG; 02-24-2011, 05:55 PM.
                          Mike

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                          • #43
                            Re: Hot / cold water mystery ? ( long winded )

                            Originally posted by flat350 View Post
                            # 12 - Last night I had my houses mixed up , this house has a TXT at the water heater ( we do the same homes for the same builder in different towns and each town has different codes .)
                            What say you boys now?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Hot / cold water mystery ? ( long winded )

                              As interesting as these trouble shooting threads can be, there's a frustrating flip side.
                              Hands on
                              Nothing so fun as asking for a detail and waiting a day or two, or attempting to decipher through one interpretation, including personal error on the part of the o/p.

                              I still say it's backfeeding from a fixture, add to the fact that the recirc line will be subject to expansion along with the total mass of two 50 gal tanks being heated and I betcha something is giving from pressure, pushing back into the cold line.

                              Sooooo many things come into play, such as whether the T&P's are letting off?
                              Can the owner hear lines ticking or squeaking from expansion? (unless they're PEX)
                              What temperature are the heaters set to?
                              What other fixtures branch off the lines before the kitchen?
                              Who's on first...and where do babies come from?

                              IF there aren't expansion tanks, then I wager that would resolve the issue.

                              At this point, I'm almost ready to take a flight out just to look at the dam thing myself!

                              Then there's the ultimate frustration, never hearing from the o/p as to what actually was the problem in the end.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Hot / cold water mystery ? ( long winded )

                                Originally posted by JCsPlumbing
                                Put in expansion tanks. Should be in anyway. If it doesn't fix it then you've added protection. If it does correct it then you've still added protection. I'd also put gauges on the hot and cold sides to test for pressure differences with the pumps on and off & to see what the actual pressure is from the street.

                                It might be an AHA! for some of us if we saw pictures. Maybe.

                                Anyway, please post when you correct the problem as to what you did.
                                i think jc said it once or20 times to put in expansion tanks in
                                Charlie

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