If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You will be required to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.
Hmmmmm Missed that one PC. Something tells me we need a pic.
Few months back, we tried that with someone having trouble on a gravity recirc system. We got pics that showed small sections of the pipe, but still left us relatively clueless...asking even more questions.
I honestly think there is a detail we covered that may have been missed with Flat350. I don't blame him, I get to that point myself sometimes...when you get so frustrated that you miss one minute yet obvious detail while you scramble trying to remedy the problem.
The introduction of backflow preventers and check valves has caused many problems since their introduction and most of them are caused by thermal expansion. Many times the relief valve on a water heater will weep and the plumber will change it out only to have the problem return. Leaking backflow preventers can also be linked to the same problem. Any time water is heated, it expands. In the days before backflow preventers the expansion would migrate back into the water lines and cause few visible problems. Now of course the private water system is sealed at the BFP, so any pressure increases within the system are going to occur within the system. Many times the customer will complain of a sudden spitting or excess water pressure for a second or two after opening a faucet. Or a toilet fill valve that spits and gurgles when the toilet is flushed. All symptoms of thermal expansion. Diagnosis is fairly simple. Install a good pressure gauge in the system and then take a couple before and after readings. The results can be very surprising. I have seen as much as a 40 lb pressure increase in the off cycle.
Haven't been by the computer since Sun. morn. , YES the house does have a TXT on the first heater . As soon as my service guy can sch. an app. to get into this P.I.T.A. house he's going to try the laundry first and probably try a new cartridge in the kitchen second.Not both at the same time , I want to know if it's the laundry , kitchen or whatever causing the problem. Somebody made a comment about feeling the pipe to try to isolate it , as you stand by the first heater with your hand on the cold feed you can feel the warmth slowly creep up the line and work it's way into the overhead horizontal line headed to the kit. after 90 min. or so . IF I HAD OR COULD GET PICS. I WOULD POST THEM IN A HEARTBEAT but this nut doesn't really even want us in his house , it's also a finished basement about the only thing you would see is the heaters , so my service guy has been dealing with him . This isn't my first install like this I've done hundreds , not being snippy I'm just tired of dealing with this .When you think that you have it fixed and then it decides to rear it's ugly head again .The check valve at the kit. sink may be an option too.
TOPDAWG the kit. recirc line was added after the rough but before trim , we could get at the kit. lines in the area of the basement under the sink but not at the main and the return line is piped to the heaters about 15 joist bays away from where the hot and cold lines are located. there is no way that any of them are touching . If I can get my scanner up and running I could probably get a drawing done that would show exactly how they are piped , and the option of a different type of a kit. fct would never fly with this homeowner. When they built this house they tore all of the cabinets and hardwood floors out because the homeowner decided that he didn't really like the original finish that he had OK'd and chosen , this was done at the builder cost not the homeowners ( they already had a lot of money in the house and they found out he gave the last builder that he worked with a very difficult time with attorneys ) . this isn't a small house either probably 6000 + sq. ft = lots of wood and cabinets , he's a P.I.T.A.
its just like the others are saying it is hard to figure this out with out hands on .
and being you cant go and try something and we can see what that does makes it even harder .
watch it will be some thing so simple but we will keep trying
--Could you have a simple case of conductive / convective heating of the cold water line?
--Recirc is keeping the line warm all night, If the pipes were installed very close together could it be heating the cold water line inside the walls??
--Is the water only hot from the cold line in the mornings and for only a short time???
Are the hot water lines insulated:-)
If I missed these details in the thread please forgive...
Still Just throwing things out there. Is there just one expansion tank? Is it a 2 gallon or 5? They have ratings as to what size heater they willl serve. Its easy for someone to throw in a smaller cheaper tank and it would probably go un-detected by inspector. I think the 2 gal is rated at 50 gallons so if you have 2 heaters you would need larger of the two.
Also, i don't know why this would matter, but its the HVAC tech coming out in me, have you checked the amp draw on the circ pumps?
Have you said whether they are gas heaters or electric?
Somebody made a comment about feeling the pipe to try to isolate it , as you stand by the first heater with your hand on the cold feed you can feel the warmth slowly creep up the line and work it's way into the overhead horizontal line headed to the kit. after 90 min. or so .
That leaves just one question...Is there anything tee'd off that cold line before the kitchen, after the heater? Put a gauge on the line and see what it gets up to while the tank heats, you might get a second exp tank on top of replacing the cartridge. I feel for ya...knots in my stomache just imagining your situation.
I'm going to let this rest for awhile and try some of the suggestions , might be a week or so til we get into the house . Thanks for the ideas and i'll post if we come up with a positive solution . Many people have asked questions about whats in the house and if you read the entire thread you'll find the answers hvae ben discussed in a prior post .
EVERYBODY HAS LEAKS ,JUST DON'T HAVE YOUR"S ON MY JOB !