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  • #46
    Re: Hot / cold water mystery ? ( long winded )

    Originally posted by plumberscrack View Post
    What say you boys now?
    If so, did he pressurize it according the the system?

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: Hot / cold water mystery ? ( long winded )

      Originally posted by HVAC HAWK View Post
      i think jc said it once or20 times to put in expansion tanks in
      Took me a couple of thunderous slaps on da head, TXT = Thermal eXpansion Tank....duh.

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Hot / cold water mystery ? ( long winded )

        Originally posted by JCsPlumbing
        Hmmmmm Missed that one PC. Something tells me we need a pic.
        Few months back, we tried that with someone having trouble on a gravity recirc system.
        We got pics that showed small sections of the pipe, but still left us relatively clueless...asking even more questions.

        I honestly think there is a detail we covered that may have been missed with Flat350.
        I don't blame him, I get to that point myself sometimes...when you get so frustrated that you miss one minute yet obvious detail while you scramble trying to remedy the problem.

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        • #49
          Re: Hot / cold water mystery ? ( long winded )

          The introduction of backflow preventers and check valves has caused many problems since their introduction and most of them are caused by thermal expansion. Many times the relief valve on a water heater will weep and the plumber will change it out only to have the problem return. Leaking backflow preventers can also be linked to the same problem. Any time water is heated, it expands. In the days before backflow preventers the expansion would migrate back into the water lines and cause few visible problems. Now of course the private water system is sealed at the BFP, so any pressure increases within the system are going to occur within the system. Many times the customer will complain of a sudden spitting or excess water pressure for a second or two after opening a faucet. Or a toilet fill valve that spits and gurgles when the toilet is flushed. All symptoms of thermal expansion. Diagnosis is fairly simple. Install a good pressure gauge in the system and then take a couple before and after readings. The results can be very surprising. I have seen as much as a 40 lb pressure increase in the off cycle.
          sigpic

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          • #50
            Re: Hot / cold water mystery ? ( long winded )

            Haven't been by the computer since Sun. morn. , YES the house does have a TXT on the first heater . As soon as my service guy can sch. an app. to get into this P.I.T.A. house he's going to try the laundry first and probably try a new cartridge in the kitchen second.Not both at the same time , I want to know if it's the laundry , kitchen or whatever causing the problem. Somebody made a comment about feeling the pipe to try to isolate it , as you stand by the first heater with your hand on the cold feed you can feel the warmth slowly creep up the line and work it's way into the overhead horizontal line headed to the kit. after 90 min. or so . IF I HAD OR COULD GET PICS. I WOULD POST THEM IN A HEARTBEAT but this nut doesn't really even want us in his house , it's also a finished basement about the only thing you would see is the heaters , so my service guy has been dealing with him . This isn't my first install like this I've done hundreds , not being snippy I'm just tired of dealing with this .When you think that you have it fixed and then it decides to rear it's ugly head again .The check valve at the kit. sink may be an option too.
            TOPDAWG the kit. recirc line was added after the rough but before trim , we could get at the kit. lines in the area of the basement under the sink but not at the main and the return line is piped to the heaters about 15 joist bays away from where the hot and cold lines are located. there is no way that any of them are touching . If I can get my scanner up and running I could probably get a drawing done that would show exactly how they are piped , and the option of a different type of a kit. fct would never fly with this homeowner. When they built this house they tore all of the cabinets and hardwood floors out because the homeowner decided that he didn't really like the original finish that he had OK'd and chosen , this was done at the builder cost not the homeowners ( they already had a lot of money in the house and they found out he gave the last builder that he worked with a very difficult time with attorneys ) . this isn't a small house either probably 6000 + sq. ft = lots of wood and cabinets , he's a P.I.T.A.
            Last edited by flat350; 03-24-2008, 06:13 PM.
            EVERYBODY HAS LEAKS ,JUST DON'T HAVE YOUR"S ON MY JOB !

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Hot / cold water mystery ? ( long winded )

              its just like the others are saying it is hard to figure this out with out hands on .
              and being you cant go and try something and we can see what that does makes it even harder .
              watch it will be some thing so simple but we will keep trying
              Charlie

              My seek the peek fundraiser page
              http://observatory.mountwashington.o...nal&fr_id=1040


              http://www.mountwashington.org/weather/conditions.php

              new work pictures 12/09
              http://public.fotki.com/hvachawk/

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              • #52
                Re: Hot / cold water mystery ? ( long winded )

                Well I'm going to have my head examined now ( dentist appt. ) I'll try to check back later tonight .
                EVERYBODY HAS LEAKS ,JUST DON'T HAVE YOUR"S ON MY JOB !

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: Hot / cold water mystery ? ( long winded )

                  flat350,

                  Just as a suggestion, even a cheap laser thermometer would make finding the problem much easier for you. I use a Raytek MX4 and it sure makes me look smarter than I am when solving such problems.

                  Mark
                  "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                  I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Hot / cold water mystery ? ( long winded )

                    Some random thoughts that come to mind

                    --Could you have a simple case of conductive / convective heating of the cold water line?
                    --Recirc is keeping the line warm all night, If the pipes were installed very close together could it be heating the cold water line inside the walls??

                    --Is the water only hot from the cold line in the mornings and for only a short time???

                    Are the hot water lines insulated:-)

                    If I missed these details in the thread please forgive...

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Hot / cold water mystery ? ( long winded )

                      Still Just throwing things out there. Is there just one expansion tank? Is it a 2 gallon or 5? They have ratings as to what size heater they willl serve. Its easy for someone to throw in a smaller cheaper tank and it would probably go un-detected by inspector. I think the 2 gal is rated at 50 gallons so if you have 2 heaters you would need larger of the two.

                      Also, i don't know why this would matter, but its the HVAC tech coming out in me, have you checked the amp draw on the circ pumps?

                      Have you said whether they are gas heaters or electric?

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Hot / cold water mystery ? ( long winded )

                        Originally posted by flat350 View Post
                        Somebody made a comment about feeling the pipe to try to isolate it , as you stand by the first heater with your hand on the cold feed you can feel the warmth slowly creep up the line and work it's way into the overhead horizontal line headed to the kit. after 90 min. or so .
                        That leaves just one question...Is there anything tee'd off that cold line before the kitchen, after the heater?
                        Put a gauge on the line and see what it gets up to while the tank heats, you might get a second exp tank on top of replacing the cartridge.
                        I feel for ya...knots in my stomache just imagining your situation.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: Hot / cold water mystery ? ( long winded )

                          I agree with WCP, could be crossing over in a cartridge style shower/tub valve. What types of shower/tub valves are installed?
                          ANYONE CAN TAKE THE HELM WHEN THE SEA IS CALM.

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                          • #58
                            Re: Hot / cold water mystery ? ( long winded )

                            I'm going to let this rest for awhile and try some of the suggestions , might be a week or so til we get into the house . Thanks for the ideas and i'll post if we come up with a positive solution . Many people have asked questions about whats in the house and if you read the entire thread you'll find the answers hvae ben discussed in a prior post .
                            EVERYBODY HAS LEAKS ,JUST DON'T HAVE YOUR"S ON MY JOB !

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: Hot / cold water mystery ? ( long winded )

                              Wonder what happened with this. Lot's of people don't post results or solutions.

                              I need my money on the nightstand in the end.

                              J.C.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Hot / cold water mystery ? ( long winded )

                                Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                                Wonder what happened with this. Lot's of people don't post results or solutions.

                                I need my money on the nightstand in the end.

                                J.C.
                                yes!... this was a good one... flat? what happened?
                                This is my reminder to myself that no good will ever come from discussing politics or religion with anyone, ever.

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