Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Wax vs. Other

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Re: Wax vs. Other

    I'm sure the majority of us on here already know about this, but I like to use a putty knife to scrap off all the old wax from the toilet and flange before putting the new wax ring down.
    Proud To Be Union!!

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Wax vs. Other

      Horned Wax Rings are a money maker for me.


      Those waxless fluidmasters are a money maker for me.


      Those stoopid plastic toilet bolts make a lot of money for me.



      All the above are what I'm called out to take out, replace and put it back with all brass 5/16" bolts and single wax rings like it should've been done to begin with!
      Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Wax vs. Other

        Plastic toilet bolts? Someone is always trying to reinvent the wheel

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Wax vs. Other

          I don't like the horn because I caught my hand auger on one and pulled the horn into the trapway and really caused a clog. I ended up pulling the toilet and resetting it on a simple clog job. I like the dealie that Tyman pasted. They are great for carrier toilets.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Wax vs. Other

            Originally posted by Aaron91 View Post
            Tyman, is that an insert flange of some sort? If so, were is the bolt holes and slots?
            Aaron they are made by Fernco.

            Here is a link. http://www.fernco.com/FTS.asp
            You must get all the wax off of the horn of the toilet before you stick it on the bottom of the toilet.

            Like I said, I have not installed one, nor removed a bad one, yet.
            Anyone can tear a man down, few can build one up.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Wax vs. Other

              Originally posted by Tyman View Post
              Aaron they are made by Fernco.

              Here is a link. http://www.fernco.com/FTS.asp
              You must get all the wax off of the horn of the toilet before you stick it on the bottom of the toilet.

              Like I said, I have not installed one, nor removed a bad one, yet.
              These are the ones I was referring to. I used one or two, but it was by
              the customers request. The first time I tried to use one, I had to go back and replace a bowl that was defective, and the seal stayed in the pipe instead of on the toilet. Kind of scary to me. I wouldn't use one on a used toilet unless you want to carry acetone around with you too.
              sigpic3:00, I mean 5:00, and work is done. Time to crack a cold one.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Wax vs. Other

                No horn here either...
                My reason is Billy's G.I. Joe action figure might get hung up on the extra rim, I agree with the other mentioned reasons as well.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Wax vs. Other

                  Originally posted by DuckButter View Post
                  No horn here either...
                  My reason is Billy's G.I. Joe action figure might get hung up on the extra rim, I agree with the other mentioned reasons as well.
                  So you would rather have it stuck in main? id rather be able to pull the w/c and grab it with my hand

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Wax vs. Other

                    Not to mention, a horn won't work on a Kohler one piece (at least 20 years old) and maybe others because the horn is too narrow to accomodate the outlet of the toilet.
                    "Man will do many things to get himself loved, he will do all things to get himself envied." Mark Twain

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Wax vs. Other

                      Originally posted by wrench spinner View Post
                      So you would rather have it stuck in main? id rather be able to pull the w/c and grab it with my hand
                      "Billy's G.I.Joe figure" was intended figuratively....picture a a comb or toothbrush that catches on that lip, or sits on it cross-wise...horizontally...then allows paper and solid waste to gather on it.
                      the opening on the horn is roughly the same diameter as the toilets outlet (2-1/4"..I think) with a small area between that has a wider diameter, the drainage from the flange to the main is at least 3" and never gets smaller....the are (supposedly) no dead ends or lips within the drainage system that would allow a comb or toothbrush to hang up like that.
                      "Billy's G.I. Joe" would normally find it's way out of the house.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Wax vs. Other

                        i think you guys are missing the real point of the horn.

                        the horn acts as a funnel to divert water/ waste past the joint between the riser and the flange.

                        we are suppose to have pipe flush to the top of flange. how many times have you seen a pipe that came up short. the horn will bridge that gap and keep the wax centered and divert the waste past the gap.

                        when we came up short, we had to cut a "dutchman" or pour lead.

                        i still have my custom turned wooden cork/ dutchman maker.

                        insert the cork into the pipe and pour lead between the cork and the flange. let cool for 10 seconds and remove the cork. an instant dutchman without cutting.

                        also a horn work great when stacking a second wax ring.

                        never ever use the combination 4'' x 3'' horns on a 4'' waste flange.


                        why the 5/16'' brass closet bolts? do the 1/4'' ones break? are the bottom tabs/ ears stronger than the 1/4''?

                        don't see the reason to oversize to 5/16''

                        rick.
                        phoebe it is

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Wax vs. Other

                          Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                          i think you guys are missing the real point of the horn.

                          the horn acts as a funnel to divert water/ waste past the joint between the riser and the flange.

                          we are suppose to have pipe flush to the top of flange. how many times have you seen a pipe that came up short. the horn will bridge that gap and keep the wax centered and divert the waste past the gap.

                          when we came up short, we had to cut a "dutchman" or pour lead.

                          i still have my custom turned wooden cork/ dutchman maker.

                          insert the cork into the pipe and pour lead between the cork and the flange. let cool for 10 seconds and remove the cork. an instant dutchman without cutting.

                          also a horn work great when stacking a second wax ring.

                          never ever use the combination 4'' x 3'' horns on a 4'' waste flange.


                          why the 5/16'' brass closet bolts? do the 1/4'' ones break? are the bottom tabs/ ears stronger than the 1/4''?

                          don't see the reason to oversize to 5/16''

                          rick.


                          A horn is used in the idea of last resort, not a given rule. It's true intention is to somehow bypass a bad brass to lead connection whereby it's not water tight.

                          So....you'd think you'd see that on that type of flange only. Not so.


                          Take a knife and cut down from the top of a wax horned ring and you'll see that they purposely set that ring's flanged edge 3/4" into the product, leaving the remainder of that thickness to the underside of the equation.

                          Given and knowing that dimensions change from toilet application to toilet application, a flange that is too high or a install where someone doubled the ring,

                          that plastic flange will instantly squish out that 3/4" inch of wax and push that plastic horn to the bottom of the toilet, allowing no positive seal.


                          The first time that toilet is plunged, it's a leaker.


                          Trust me, the mfg's aren't stupid; they know if they sell that horned ring with a set of bolts, lower the price and have it all in one, they've got a natural born sucker right off the bat. Simplifies buying separate and the consumer is trained to think like that.

                          Standard wax rings worked for years; I've pulled toilets to the day they was installed years prior with no flange, just plumber's putty that worked without error.

                          It's the introduction of "fast and easy" with all these gimmick tricks relating to products that in everyday codes in the United States that don't allow half of these is what formulates the equation that something has to be readily understood that if a plumber is constantly coming out to fix leaks *horned wax rings*......then that indicates the product's shortcoming completely.

                          It simply doesn't work for all applications.

                          I keep them on the truck but only on cast iron or copper basement closet flanges.....that's it. Nothing above in a wood structure, ever. The percentage of failure is too high for my liking.

                          The underside of a toilet against an industry standard of setting a toilet flange compresses a normal wax ring to a predetermined distance that allows a deflection of wax sufficient to hold that connection gas and water tight. Too much, too little......you always have problems. Setting a plastic horn into that equation makes it that much worse.


                          Those 1/4" toilet bolts allow too much free movement in the slots of flange, they always spin because the head is moving too freely.

                          That thicker bolt is going to be harder to cut/snap to get the caps on.....but you've got more to work with 20-40 years down the road as the nut on the bolt will clean the threads with no problem, the larger ones are easier to stud the flange.

                          If they made them....I'd go even thicker than 5/16" so the thickness of the bolt matched the slot, kept from uneven twisting of the bolt.

                          That's just me.....I like everything to last with my name on the job. Anyone that comes behind me on my calls knows I took the time to do it right. I might be the only guy who puts grease on threads religiously, depending on the application.


                          I go through 20 of those squeeze tube/food grade silicone type greases between rebuilds and any bolt I had to saw/grind/break/twist off over time because someone didn't think about the simple effort going such a long way.
                          Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Wax vs. Other

                            Always used a Harvey #3 or #4 horned wax ring with no problems. I would never use plastic or 1/4" bolts. 1/4" bolts are a good indicator of the "Toilet-in-a-box" sickness that we are beginning to see quite a bit of. I do like the adjustable flange setups on the Caroma Caravelle though. I'm not sure if any other brands incorporate this design, but works great for offsetting and pulling/reinstalling the toilet many times, as what typically happens when remodeling a 1 bathroom house. (Just got done setting the same toilet for the third time, as the tile guy was finally finished.) Plus I like the look of the smooth sides with the enclosed trapway and the bolts hidden in the back of the toilet and no exposed bolts or bolt caps on each side of the bowl.
                            Distractions are everywhere, don't lose sight of your dream.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Wax vs. Other

                              I hate the 1/4" bolts. They fall over too easy. And spin when loosening.

                              Whose fingers can even use them?

                              5/16" bolts every time.

                              Also, no adjustable slots on plastic closet flanges. Only straight slots.

                              As far as wax rings go, I prefer wax on ALL toilets. Carrier or floor mount.

                              Urinal wax rings are better also. They stay in place.
                              Last edited by sweatthepipe; 05-12-2008, 12:20 AM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Wax vs. Other

                                Originally posted by DUNBAR View Post
                                A horn is used in the idea of last resort, not a given rule. It's true intention is to somehow bypass a bad brass to lead connection whereby it's not water tight.

                                So....you'd think you'd see that on that type of flange only. Not so.


                                Take a knife and cut down from the top of a wax horned ring and you'll see that they purposely set that ring's flanged edge 3/4" into the product, leaving the remainder of that thickness to the underside of the equation.

                                Given and knowing that dimensions change from toilet application to toilet application, a flange that is too high or a install where someone doubled the ring,

                                that plastic flange will instantly squish out that 3/4" inch of wax and push that plastic horn to the bottom of the toilet, allowing no positive seal.


                                The first time that toilet is plunged, it's a leaker.


                                Trust me, the mfg's aren't stupid; they know if they sell that horned ring with a set of bolts, lower the price and have it all in one, they've got a natural born sucker right off the bat. Simplifies buying separate and the consumer is trained to think like that.

                                Standard wax rings worked for years; I've pulled toilets to the day they was installed years prior with no flange, just plumber's putty that worked without error.

                                It's the introduction of "fast and easy" with all these gimmick tricks relating to products that in everyday codes in the United States that don't allow half of these is what formulates the equation that something has to be readily understood that if a plumber is constantly coming out to fix leaks *horned wax rings*......then that indicates the product's shortcoming completely.

                                It simply doesn't work for all applications.

                                I keep them on the truck but only on cast iron or copper basement closet flanges.....that's it. Nothing above in a wood structure, ever. The percentage of failure is too high for my liking.

                                The underside of a toilet against an industry standard of setting a toilet flange compresses a normal wax ring to a predetermined distance that allows a deflection of wax sufficient to hold that connection gas and water tight. Too much, too little......you always have problems. Setting a plastic horn into that equation makes it that much worse.


                                Those 1/4" toilet bolts allow too much free movement in the slots of flange, they always spin because the head is moving too freely.

                                That thicker bolt is going to be harder to cut/snap to get the caps on.....but you've got more to work with 20-40 years down the road as the nut on the bolt will clean the threads with no problem, the larger ones are easier to stud the flange.

                                If they made them....I'd go even thicker than 5/16" so the thickness of the bolt matched the slot, kept from uneven twisting of the bolt.

                                That's just me.....I like everything to last with my name on the job. Anyone that comes behind me on my calls knows I took the time to do it right. I might be the only guy who puts grease on threads religiously, depending on the application.


                                I go through 20 of those squeeze tube/food grade silicone type greases between rebuilds and any bolt I had to saw/grind/break/twist off over time because someone didn't think about the simple effort going such a long way.
                                I have to say, never had a problem with a wax seal with a horn but.... I've never had a problem with a wax seal without a horn. Maybe just lucky.

                                The only time I've seen a problem with a wax seal with a horn is if the flange was a little high. The toilet will still sit on the floor properly but the outlet of the toilet can contact the horn warping it a little. And this usually won't happen if it's centered properly.

                                I too try to coat the threaded parts. And there is a special place in hell for people that put wing nuts on the tank to bowl bolts. Whether they came with the toilet or not.

                                J.C.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X