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Bad 1" Copper tee.

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  • #31
    Re: Bad 1" Copper tee.

    Originally posted by Killertoiletspider View Post
    These presses are twice as long as a football field, the entire building vibrates.
    I imagine then that the only joint that would last would be a silphos sweat joint.

    I wander if propress is succeptable to water hamer vibration over an extended period of time? Sounds like something that could come back to haunt the industry in a decade or so... kind of like the old poly tubing.
    spodelee

    Until lions have their own storytellers, stories of the hunt shall always glorify the hunter

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Bad 1" Copper tee.

      I agree with the brazing of copper lines. Suprised it wasn't done from the get go.
      Buy cheap, buy twice.

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Bad 1" Copper tee.

        Originally posted by gear junkie View Post
        I agree with the brazing of copper lines. Suprised it wasn't done from the get go.
        The soldered joints in their other building hold up just fine on similar machinery.

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Bad 1" Copper tee.

          Originally posted by Killertoiletspider View Post
          The soldered joints in their other building hold up just fine on similar machinery.
          This is VERY good information. Better not use the ProPress when vibration can occur on the line. You can bet an exclusion on the warranty of the system is coming.

          Imagine somewhere that only runs 12 hours a day, springs a leak over a $500,000 piece of equipment. Get the picture?

          J.C.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Bad 1" Copper tee.

            Originally posted by Killertoiletspider View Post
            The soldered joints in their other building hold up just fine on similar machinery.
            Assuming the vibration is about the same on both pieces of equipment, that doesn't give me a warm fuzzy about propress when vibration is present! Sometimes you just can't beat the old fashioned way!
            spodelee

            Until lions have their own storytellers, stories of the hunt shall always glorify the hunter

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Bad 1" Copper tee.

              Originally posted by Devine Plumbing View Post
              That is a load of crap. I just have never seen a bad fitting.
              Which explains your lack of experience in the industry.

              Up until the mid 80's all copper pipe was manufactured in the United States. Your lucky today if you can find anything made here.

              There is a boat load of copper made in Mexico and China that I swear is boot legged.

              Case in point.

              Four years ago, we called out to a military project a 1,000 miles from our office. No big deal we go over seas if were called for the military.

              The call was to correct someone elses F'up on an installation of a high purity water treatment system. Normally I walk from these, especially since we were not involved from day one, however in this case I was asked to step in from some Higher Ups that knew we would solve the problem quickly.

              First thing, we show up at the project and find that the entire system was installed wrong and frankly looked like my kids sweated the pipes. We told the GC in charge to bring to the Job sight all new piping, Nibco or equivelant, all new fittings, Nibco or equivelant, we would handle the rest.

              The next day the GC shows up with pipe and fittings that are stamped Nibco. I ask the foreman were he got Nibco this far out in the middle of no-where. He says, OH, we have a supplier about 90 miles from here and he had it.

              So we go through and demo out the old installatin and redo the entire piping system. In fact I personally am involved with sweating a majority of the pipe.

              When we were done, at least 80% of the joints leaked. I have been sweating pipe for over 25 years, there is no way I had that big a Brain Fart.

              So wee got out a Micrometer and measured the pipe and the fittings. Every one of them was off. The only thing I could figure was the local supply house got sold some boot leg crap from China, stamped Nibco.

              $hit, it's bad enought those guys boot leg everything else, but copper pipe and fittings, give me a break.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Bad 1" Copper tee.

                Originally posted by spodelee View Post
                I wander if propress is succeptable to water hamer vibration over an extended period of time? Sounds like something that could come back to haunt the industry in a decade or so... kind of like the old poly tubing.
                Actually it is. If you have never used it find a local rep and get them to demo it for your then you will understand how it works. Once the pipe is crimped there is no way that vibration, or surges is going to effect the joint.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Bad 1" Copper tee.

                  Originally posted by spodelee View Post
                  Assuming the vibration is about the same on both pieces of equipment, that doesn't give me a warm fuzzy about propress when vibration is present! Sometimes you just can't beat the old fashioned way!
                  They are using Pro Press on risers for some high rises here in Chicago, I'm curious to see how they perform with the movement high rise buildings have, even if they use expansion loops every five floors will it be enough to keep the movement from making the fittings themselves leak?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Bad 1" Copper tee.

                    Originally posted by Watersurgeon View Post
                    Actually it is. If you have never used it find a local rep and get them to demo it for your then you will understand how it works. Once the pipe is crimped there is no way that vibration, or surges is going to effect the joint.
                    Respect your opinion. But theoretical vs. real world don't always work out. This person says that they've seen leaks from vibration, I have to lean on the side of safety and believe them.

                    On your copper note, I could swear I sometimes get type L copper that's as thin as M.

                    Regardless of whatever the controls that are in place to guarantee thickness.

                    J.C.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Bad 1" Copper tee.

                      Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                      I do not own one. Not legal currently in NC. However, I think the right answer is yes. You can crimp/connect the ProPress fittings with the water in the line. Possibly with the water moving through the line with some flow.

                      PlumberRick owns several. He'll give you better answers.

                      P.S. Thanks for getting the forum moving back to Professional Plumbing.

                      J.C.
                      Rick owns several of everything... he told me on the phone the other day that he owns something like 8 seesnakes! Works by himself - I'll bet he watched Tool Time every week without fail when it was on the air!
                      spodelee

                      Until lions have their own storytellers, stories of the hunt shall always glorify the hunter

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Bad 1" Copper tee.

                        Is the recrimping of the pipe possibly softening it? When metal get pressed repeatedly it gets softer. Could this be a reason why the joints aren't holding? Still thinking vibration isolators might be neccassary.
                        Buy cheap, buy twice.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Bad 1" Copper tee.

                          Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                          Respect your opinion. But theoretical vs. real world don't always work out. This person says that they've seen leaks from vibration, I have to lean on the side of safety and believe them.

                          On your copper note, I could swear I sometimes get type L copper that's as thin as M.

                          Regardless of whatever the controls that are in place to guarantee thickness.

                          J.C.
                          I think propress has its place in certain applications and not so much in others. Just like most things, there is no magic bullet.

                          An interesting note though, the other day at the PHCC show, the Ridgid rep. said the propress seal was in the crimp and not in the o-ring. The o-ring is for back-up only. I think this explains the vibration problem, since copper is so malleable and subject to expansion and contraction. I can see how the crimp would loosen over time (with vibration).

                          I also asked the rep. if propress was rated for refrigerant/hvac. he said no and when I asked him why he said, "vibration".

                          Now I am wandering if I can use it on HVAC condensate drains.
                          spodelee

                          Until lions have their own storytellers, stories of the hunt shall always glorify the hunter

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Bad 1" Copper tee.

                            Originally posted by gear junkie View Post
                            Is the recrimping of the pipe possibly softening it? When metal get pressed repeatedly it gets softer. Could this be a reason why the joints aren't holding? Still thinking vibration isolators might be neccassary.
                            Could be. I haven't actually seen the system done or dismantled to verify what's happening to the pipe in the fitting.

                            But even if the metal is becoming more malleable, they had leaks after the first series of crimps.

                            Isolation, supports, end braces for hydraulic shock. Be better to use it all.

                            J.C.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Bad 1" Copper tee.

                              Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                              Could be. I haven't actually seen the system done or dismantled to verify what's happening to the pipe in the fitting.

                              But even if the metal is becoming more malleable, they had leaks after the first series of crimps.

                              Isolation, supports, end braces for hydraulic shock. Be better to use it all.

                              J.C.
                              Seems like the copper would harden after recrimping, not soften. Just like hand bending a piece of soft drawn 90 degrees a few times... have to heat and anneal it in order regain flexibility. Wouldn't recrimp do the same thing?? No???
                              spodelee

                              Until lions have their own storytellers, stories of the hunt shall always glorify the hunter

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Bad 1" Copper tee.

                                I would cut it all out and pro press in new fittings. Bada Boom !

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