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  • #31
    Re: Water hammer/ expansion tank

    Excellent!

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    • #32
      The problem is not water hammering

      The problem is vibration caused by the valve only when the water is running and the valve is open in a specific position. Water hammering only occurs at the time a fixture or is turned off.

      A vibrating sound occurs as the water is trying to sneak past a soft or loose washer. Arrowhead hose bibbs are famous for vibrating. The problem has nothing to do with strapping the pipes.

      Expansion tanks, air in the pipes (if air in a pipe was possible), and air chambers have nothing to do with the noise. The problem can also occur when you have a defective pressure regulator with a soft diaphram or a defective water meter.

      How would a cabinet maker know? I used to be a good plumber until I was convinced otherwise.

      Remember, this forum is open to the public. Please post all derogatory statements in private messages. Lets keep the forum friendly and professional.

      Thank you.

      Jack

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      • #33
        Re: Water hammer/ expansion tank

        Thank you for your guidance & support Jack, Leonard, Tom, Dick or Harry.
        The problem was resolved when he dropped the pressure on the expansion tank...ya gotta read the details buddy!

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Water hammer/ expansion tank

          Originally posted by wookie View Post
          Still haven't wrapped my head around what happened but problem solved.

          If incoming water pressure is 60psi and expansion tank is 60psi there should be no water in tank to surge when opening full port hosebib. I did tap on the expansion tank when in service and it sounded empty to me.
          wookie
          Which is part of the problem. You have a thick rubber balloon expanded in a steel tank under 60 psi of air-pressure. No wonder that the 60 psi of water 'thumps' a bit when it surges through the ball-valve action hose faucets.
          Let some of the air pressure out and the balloon will be softer and it will contract against the incoming higher-force water pressure...acting more like a cushion or shock-absorber in the system.
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          • #35
            Re: Water hammer/ expansion tank

            Originally posted by DuckButter View Post
            Thank you for your guidance & support Jack, Leonard, Tom, Dick or Harry.
            The problem was resolved when he dropped the pressure on the expansion tank...ya gotta read the details buddy!
            Maybe lowering the pressure masked the problem. Sorry, I'm a slow reader. Maybe I'll catch up on the next round. I'm still learning. 80lb to 90lb is only a little higher than average. The first thing to look at when a noise occurs is the valve, pressure regulator (if any) and the meter. From most posts, is appears that people look at straps, air chambers, and expansion tanks first. Not one of these will cause a pipe, with water flowing, to make a vibration of whistling sound.

            Be sweet!

            Okay, if my handle is out-of-place, I will make a new and final one.

            I love this forum. I love the different ways people think about things. This is useful information. It is good food for thought and I am going to use it to write a book (manual) for my company.

            Jack

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            • #36
              Re: Water hammer/ expansion tank

              I'd just be happy to have ONE name to call ya, my guess is Jack...wondering where Leonard came from.

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              • #37
                Re: Water hammer/ expansion tank

                Originally posted by Arts Cabinets View Post
                Maybe lowering the pressure masked the problem. Sorry, I'm a slow reader. Maybe I'll catch up on the next round. I'm still learning. 80lb to 90lb is only a little higher than average. The first thing to look at when a noise occurs is the valve, pressure regulator (if any) and the meter. From most posts, is appears that people look at straps, air chambers, and expansion tanks first. Not one of these will cause a pipe, with water flowing, to make a vibration of whistling sound.

                Be sweet!

                Okay, if my handle is out-of-place, I will make a new and final one.

                I love this forum. I love the different ways people think about things. This is useful information. It is good food for thought and I am going to use it to write a book (manual) for my company.

                Jack
                40psi is the norm and 80 psi is max for watts expansion tanks.
                Buy cheap, buy twice.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: The problem is not water hammering

                  Originally posted by Arts Cabinets View Post
                  The problem is vibration caused by the valve only when the water is running and the valve is open in a specific position. Water hammering only occurs at the time a fixture or is turned off.

                  A vibrating sound occurs as the water is trying to sneak past a soft or loose washer. Arrowhead hose bibbs are famous for vibrating. The problem has nothing to do with strapping the pipes.

                  Expansion tanks, air in the pipes (if air in a pipe was possible), and air chambers have nothing to do with the noise. The problem can also occur when you have a defective pressure regulator with a soft diaphram or a defective water meter.

                  How would a cabinet maker know? I used to be a good plumber until I was convinced otherwise.

                  Remember, this forum is open to the public. Please post all derogatory statements in private messages. Lets keep the forum friendly and professional.

                  Thank you.

                  Jack
                  So BESTLINE PLUMBING, you apparently were incorrect with your diagnosis & repair. Can happen to any of us.

                  I have an ethics question for you or anyone. Based on your experience and diagnosis you would have repaired/replaced the hosebibbs, PRV, and addressed the meter in some way. 2 hours labor? That's $600.00 plus materials if I recall correctly. If this doesn't correct the problem, do you refund any of this or do you charge another $300.00 plus materials for the expansion tank adjustment? That's roughly $1000.00 to let the air out of a can isn't it? And for me, I don't always buy the idea of that a plumber "improved" the system justifying cost. I've seen older-superior parts replaced with newer-inferior parts.

                  Some say you're prices are high but maybe they don't have a clue what it cost to run your type of business. So will make the price lower.

                  Let's say someone only charged $10.00/hr. Who pays for the plumbers misdiagnosis'?

                  J.C.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: The problem is not water hammering

                    Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                    So BESTLINE PLUMBING, you apparently were incorrect with your diagnosis & repair. Can happen to any of us.

                    I have an ethics question for you or anyone. Based on your experience and diagnosis you would have repaired/replaced the hosebibbs, PRV, and addressed the meter in some way. 2 hours labor? That's $600.00 plus materials if I recall correctly. If this doesn't correct the problem, do you refund any of this or do you charge another $300.00 plus materials for the expansion tank adjustment? That's roughly $1000.00 to let the air out of a can isn't it? And for me, I don't always buy the idea of that a plumber "improved" the system justifying cost. I've seen older-superior parts replaced with newer-inferior parts.

                    Some say you're prices are high but maybe they don't have a clue what it cost to run your type of business. So will make the price lower.

                    Let's say someone only charged $10.00/hr. Who pays for the plumbers misdiagnosis'?

                    J.C.
                    From Jack:
                    My $280 to $340 per hours is the benchmark I use for contracts like the recent drain job thread. Even though, almost every member balked at my price, it appears that since every member said $1600 for the drain job or higher, almost everyone is charging $300 per hour I totally disagree with the $1600 price because the job, with inspections, etc. is really a two day job or a minimum of 12 hours. You have to figure getting materials, travel, and time to go home or to the office to take a shower when you could be on another job. I would not have charged a penny less than $2800 and I press the customer to do the right thing and replace the entire drainage system for a minimum of $5400. My prices are on my web site.

                    I mentioned before that I charge different prices for different jobs. On this vibration problem, I would have charged only $65 and would probably have spent less than 15 minutes on the job. All my prices are on my web site. The strange thing about my prices are that I always charge a little less than my advertised prices and when I quote a price on the phone I always quote my higher price and rerduce the price when I arrive. I do the opposite of what you would expect. the average pressure where I live is 60lb to 80lb. I won't consider a regulator until the pressure is over 80 - 85lb. Pressure regulators cause water hammering and hissing sounds.

                    There is more psychology to pricing that business. Yesterday, I signed a contract to replace drains for $5400. The customer went under the house and had lights set up before I arrived so he knew what his problems were before I arrived. The customer said the price was lower than he expected.

                    There is a lot to be learned about perceived value. I used to think perceived value was deceived value. It goes far beyond just making your company look good or trying to majke a job look larger and better. There is a method to learn to build your perceived value so that your customers will not want to do business with any other plumber. The best customers you can have want the best job. The thrifty customers always seem to be problem customers before or after the job is finished.

                    City Girl (Victorina) is back so I have to get back to work. We will be at Whiskey Petes on the California state line on the weekend of the 25th. I love this place because there is gambling, amusements rides, swimming pool, and we will be riding ATV's, shooting rifles, and blowing things up in the desert. We aill have about four children ages 8 to 13 and anyone is welcome to come. I'll try not to talk about business. And I am too cheap to gamble even one penny.

                    Make as much money as you can while you can and have fun doing it.

                    Jack

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                    • #40
                      Re: The problem is not water hammering

                      Originally posted by Arts Cabinets View Post

                      There is more psychology to pricing that business. Yesterday, I signed a contract to replace drains for $5400. The customer went under the house and had lights set up before I arrived so he knew what his problems were before I arrived. The customer said the price was lower than he expected.

                      There is a lot to be learned about perceived value. I used to think perceived value was deceived value. It goes far beyond just making your company look good or trying to majke a job look larger and better. There is a method to learn to build your perceived value so that your customers will not want to do business with any other plumber. The best customers you can have want the best job. The thrifty customers always seem to be problem customers before or after the job is finished.
                      I agree, good post.
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                      • #41
                        Re: Water hammer/ expansion tank

                        Jack (Leonard?),

                        One thing to consider regarding your statement that the reduction in pressure at the tank was only a temporary fix...

                        Service guy brings to light the fact that plumbing & fixtures are made with 80psi in mind as a max regular operating pressure.

                        Though we all know they're tested substantially higher, they're not made to function at high pressure regularly.

                        When a water heater creats thermal expansion in excess of the rating, it really isn't expected that standard plumbing & fixtures will operate normally.

                        An analogy might be a light breeze blowing through a flute...very little noise, but when a person blows into it with a little force...you get noise.

                        I DO think you have a good point, but I don't think completely discounting the effectiveness of an expansion tank is the best idea either...other wise you might find yourself running around a home replacing or repairing fixtures unnecessarily.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Water hammer/ expansion tank

                          i don't know about the rest of the country, but out here our water meters don't have check valves. thermal expansion goes back into the city main as long as the pressure before the regulator is less then the relief valve.

                          pressure regulators have a thermal relief bypass built into them. unless there is a back flow preventer installed in the system, the excess pressure will go back.

                          i know from my list of customers that less than 1% of them have an expansion tank. the only ones that do is because they have circulating pumps with a cold water check valve. thus making it a "real" closed system.

                          the purpose of an expansion tank is not for water hammer. it's for thermal expansion. sure it will absorb some hammer, by th way it's designed. but so will an old time air chamber that is still found in old homes.

                          any quick acting valve will create a shock wave. proper strapping will help minimize and so will reducing the pressure of the water.

                          just last month i had to repair a pvc sch80 line that developed a leak on the pressure side of the irrigation main. the 90 at the change of direction actually swelled and the joint was leaking. this is on a 4 year old outside above ground unrestrained system that was installed by the landscaper. the static pressure was 120#. but when the automatic valves would shut off the pressure spiked above 300# on my high end liquid filled instrument gauge. this spiked would happen 6 times a day with the 6 valve stations.

                          i'm surprised that plastic solenoid valves have not been destroyed yet. the plastic ones typically leak between the halves around the screws.

                          the fix is either a pressure regulator, a water hammer arrestor, or slow closing valves which are very spendy. an expansion tank will help, but not designed for the sudden shock wave. the internal rubber bladder is designed for slow expansion, not shock waves.

                          and it took 3 tries to get the 90 to hold. used primer and red hot glue. even bought new glue the second and third attempt. i left the water off for over 24 hours and it would start to leak less than 1 week later. i advised them to replace with copper as this plastic is not rated for outdoor uv. and the pipe is resting on top of the concrete.


                          rick.
                          phoebe it is

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                          • #43
                            Re: Water hammer/ expansion tank

                            Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                            .

                            the purpose of an expansion tank is not for water hammer. it's for thermal expansion.
                            No duh, that is why its called a thermal expansion tank! They are required by code in any closed system, here on any house with a city water meter. Many and eventually all the meters (in this area) have backflow preventers.
                            Last edited by Service Guy; 07-18-2008, 01:35 PM.
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                            • #44
                              Re: Water hammer/ expansion tank

                              Most areas are installing dual checks at the meter yoke when installing new meters.

                              Mark
                              "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                              I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

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                              • #45
                                Re: Water hammer/ expansion tank

                                Originally posted by DuckButter View Post
                                Jack (Leonard?),

                                One thing to consider regarding your statement that the reduction in pressure at the tank was only a temporary fix...

                                Service guy brings to light the fact that plumbing & fixtures are made with 80psi in mind as a max regular operating pressure.

                                Though we all know they're tested substantially higher, they're not made to function at high pressure regularly.

                                When a water heater creats thermal expansion in excess of the rating, it really isn't expected that standard plumbing & fixtures will operate normally.

                                An analogy might be a light breeze blowing through a flute...very little noise, but when a person blows into it with a little force...you get noise.

                                I DO think you have a good point, but I don't think completely discounting the effectiveness of an expansion tank is the best idea either...other wise you might find yourself running around a home replacing or repairing fixtures unnecessarily.
                                You just might be right. Got me baffled!

                                Jack

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