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  • Re: Navien tankless heaters

    Originally posted by Total View Post
    10 degrees temp variation ? Why then do I not get the massive temperature swings that you are stating , I checked and the temp stays steady at 120 deg F.. Maybe back to the install / gas pressure / gas line size ??
    Its even in their specs a temp variation of +/- of 10º F
    Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
    Ron's Facebook
    A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
    Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
    Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

    Comment


    • Re: Navien tankless heaters

      Wow Seweratz.

      Sounds to me like you area Rinnai Noritz fanboi.

      You do know that Navien is NEW, and of course they are going to have problems. You compare them with the BEST units on the market, and call them trash because they don't measure up.

      Fact is, they are ALOT better than when they came out. They are here to stay. And in the future, they will give the other brands a run for their money.

      Every one of your posts is just bashing Navien, sigh.

      The one I put in works JUST FINE. And never had ANY sort of problem.
      NONE WHATSOEVER. But hey, they are pieces of **** and no one should buy them right?

      Comment


      • Re: Navien tankless heaters

        Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
        Maybe you got a good one.

        J.C.
        Wow , all the installs around here are not having a issue either , time to do some more digging why ..

        Comment


        • Re: Navien tankless heaters

          Originally posted by SewerRatz View Post
          Its even in their specs a temp variation of +/- of 10º F
          I see that but I have don't have the temp swings ..

          Comment


          • Re: Navien tankless heaters

            Originally posted by SewerRatz View Post
            Lets address your issues you brought up.
            1. Cold water sandwiching. Cold water sandwich is where the pipes to the fixtures and the water in the heat exchanger cool off, and the time it takes the heater to get to temperature and the water to flow hot at the fixture. This problem is the same with tank heaters, there is a delay to how long the water takes to flow before it gets hot. My apartment takes a good minute for me to get hot water out of the taps and I am only 50 feet from a 120 Gal, 500K water heater. Now this problem is exaggerated when a contractor our home owner opts to move the tankless heater to an outside wall which puts more length on the water pipes which in turn ads more time to get hot water.
            2. No power, no hot water. Same issue if you have a power vent water heater. Lots of tankless water heaters Rinnai, Noritz and Takagi can run off a battery for a short time. Guess you could use a Sump pro system for the power vents. Most people that have power vent units are the ones that opt to go with a tankless since the cost of the power vent unit is nearly as expansive as a tankless. They also see that once they spend the money on a tankless system that if something goes wrong with the unit they only need to repair the broken or leaking part, no longer need to buy a whole new power vent tank for 2K+
            3. Delays. See issue #1 the delay is also refereed to as cold water sandwich.
            4. Changing gas services for increased peak demand. Now some gas services can handle the 199K BTU of a single tankless heater along with the other loads, but others may not. This is something you do have to check to make sure the gas meter can provide enough BTU's for the whole house. Some of the homes where I installed 2 units to deal with peak demand did have to have their gas meter upgraded. On a good point the gas company was more than happy to do it for free.
            5. Yearly required maintenance. I agree on this. Most people do not drain down their tank heaters or even check the T&P valve like they are supposed to every year. How do we expect them to delime their tankless? Well you can sell them a service contract to come out and delime it yearly for them Also some of the Tankless heaters have an error code for when its time to delime them.
            6. Volume restriction & winter temperature rise. This is a non-issue as long as you properly size the tankless heater to the cold incoming water. Again in most cases for me with an incoming water temp of around 50º people can get away with a single heater with one bath house. Even a two bath home can get away with a Noritz 931 or a Rinnai R94LSi But when you get 3 or more bathrooms two Rinnai's R75LSi or the Noritz 751 DVC would be a better choice. Also I like putting in two units this way you have redundancy in case one heater needs to be taken out of service for repairs. The home owner will then still have hot water.
            Ron, you have more experience it seems with tankless. But I disagree on some points.

            1) Cold water sandwiching has to do with flow rates to make a tankless actually come on. Some people will be using hot water but reduce the volume causing the tankless to actually turn off and begin filling the line with cold water. Then they have to turn the volume up to make the heater turn on again.

            Hot-Cold-Hot.....A cold water sandwich. In fairness the % of people that this may effect may not be that much, and the ignition flow rates have decreased, but it's another potential callback.

            2) Delays. When you turn on the hot-side of a faucet with a storage heater, the full temperature hot water begins traveling to the open source. With tankless systems it takes longer for the burner & heat exchanger to come to temperature. Once again only a small % might complain-but it's another potential callback.

            3) Power Vent heaters DO need power just as a tankless does. But I see many more atmospheric vented heaters. No power needed unless they are on a well system.

            4) Yearly required maintenance. I guess I should embrace this as it could be potentially more money for me as most homeowners will probably just call and ask "What's wrong?" Then I can tell them and they'll ask "Can you come do it?" SURE!

            But with a tank they won't do anything to it. You know it and I know it even if it may be detrimental to the heaters life. And while tank heaters have decreased in quality they'll probably still get 6-10 years with one while not doing anything to it. Don't clean a tankless and it will start to decrease flow and shutdown as you know.

            5) Changing gas service. The local gas company will also change service for no charge to my knowledge. But it's not uncommon here for the piping to be inadequate for maximum load. Often when I explain to a homeowner that the gas has to be sized for ALL of their appliances and possibly changed. They lose interest. Then add the expensive venting ($300.00 est. my cost last I checked on one of them) and they don't seem to want it.


            J.C.

            Comment


            • Re: Navien tankless heaters

              40,652 views so far. WOW.

              Comment


              • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                Ron, you have more experience it seems with tankless. But I disagree on some points.

                1) Cold water sandwiching has to do with flow rates to make a tankless actually come on. Some people will be using hot water but reduce the volume causing the tankless to actually turn off and begin filling the line with cold water. Then they have to turn the volume up to make the heater turn on again.

                Hot-Cold-Hot.....A cold water sandwich. In fairness the % of people that this may effect may not be that much, and the ignition flow rates have decreased, but it's another potential callback.

                2) Delays. When you turn on the hot-side of a faucet with a storage heater, the full temperature hot water begins traveling to the open source. With tankless systems it takes longer for the burner & heat exchanger to come to temperature. Once again only a small % might complain-but it's another potential callback.

                3) Power Vent heaters DO need power just as a tankless does. But I see many more atmospheric vented heaters. No power needed unless they are on a well system.

                4) Yearly required maintenance. I guess I should embrace this as it could be potentially more money for me as most homeowners will probably just call and ask "What's wrong?" Then I can tell them and they'll ask "Can you come do it?" SURE!

                But with a tank they won't do anything to it. You know it and I know it even if it may be detrimental to the heaters life. And while tank heaters have decreased in quality they'll probably still get 6-10 years with one while not doing anything to it. Don't clean a tankless and it will start to decrease flow and shutdown as you know.

                5) Changing gas service. The local gas company will also change service for no charge to my knowledge. But it's not uncommon here for the piping to be inadequate for maximum load. Often when I explain to a homeowner that the gas has to be sized for ALL of their appliances and possibly changed. They lose interest. Then add the expensive venting ($300.00 est. my cost last I checked on one of them) and they don't seem to want it.


                J.C.
                I am glad we are talking about these points since it will help everyone including us. I mean yea I have a few years experience putting these in, but I am still learning every day. Issues I may never have seen yet but others have might sneak up on me one day.

                1.) OK I never experienced and have not had any complaints with hot -cold - hot issues. But I can see this being an issue if you have low flow aerators installed like some of the .5 gpm ones. When people turn on the faucet with such a low flow aerator along with enough cold water to make it a comfortable warm, the unit will not turn on. So this can be an issue and I do address it with the home owners telling them that all faucets should have a 2 gpm aerator installed.

                2) Delay, when the water starts to flow through a tankless heater it only takes a couple seconds for it to start putting out the desired temperature that its set at. So as long as you install the unit in the same spot as the tank there is no real difference.

                3) Power. As I said you can run these heaters on a battery backup. One of the issues I do run into is there is no electrical outlet near by for the tankless heater so I have to inform the home owner they need to hire an electrician to install an outlet.

                4) Yearly Maintenance. Yes I know no one does it to their tank type heater. If they did they would get longer life and efficiency out of them. The larger tank heaters 75 Gal and bigger, I do get hired to delime them.

                5) Gas sizing and venting. Yes most times the service is under sized and you have to put a tee at the meter and bring in a dedicated line from outside, and venting Rinnai is not to expensive, Noritz stainless steel can get up there in price. Navien, Noritz 842, and the Takagi H2 units are PVC venting so they can save a few bucks.

                I to get home owners that lose interest once they here that a unit costs this much, there is going to be about 4 to 6 hours to install it plus parts for water pipe, gas pipe and venting. But you do run into the home owners that are sold on the idea of having a tankless heater.

                One of the selling points is the fact that the first install is the most expensive due to all the work involved putting it in to meet safety and code standards. But once its in, you rarely ever have to buy a new unit. You can always replace the defective parts when they go bad. Compared to a tank type the only part that is replaceable is the dip tube, gas control valve thermocouple, burner assembly, anode rod, and such but once the tank leaks you have to buy a new tank. Where if the heat exchanger leaks on a tankless you just replace the heat exchanger not the whole unit.

                I also explain to them that the savings they will see using a tankless over a tank is not all that great. But in commercial applications I see them saving them lots of money.
                Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
                Ron's Facebook
                A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
                Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
                Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

                Comment


                • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                  Originally posted by saysflushable View Post
                  40,652 views so far. WOW.
                  This thread is over 2 years old.
                  Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
                  Ron's Facebook
                  A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
                  Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
                  Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

                  Comment


                  • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                    Originally posted by Total View Post
                    10 degrees temp variation ? Why then do I not get the massive temperature swings that you are stating , I checked and the temp stays steady at 120 deg F.. Maybe back to the install / gas pressure / gas line size ??

                    The extent of my personal knowledge/experience with this unit = zip, I repeated what Lee stated per MFG, the unit specs apparently state a 10 degree + - deviation. not me, the MFG.

                    It would appear Seweratz has done some homework on this unit, which then benefits the rest of us, which is why forums like this are golden.

                    I hate to "bash" Navien, but for now I'd rather not install a completely new unit I'm not familiar with and then get a call a few days later at 9pm, all to find myself stuck in a basement baffled at how to explain to my customer there's nothing I can do.

                    Total/Teacher, that's not something you'd understand, you don't do this for a living...regardless how happy you are with your unit, if I install a unit that disappoints my customer I'm the one who gets to invest the added hours monkeying around with manometers, multimeters or informing my customer there'll be additional charges for installing a tempering valve.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                      I had a Navien NR180A installed in my home two days ago. The contractors, one of the largest in the South Jersey area had no previous experience with this unit. Hot water was sufficient but the lag time to reach the farthest faucet was around 30 seconds longer than with my conventional tank type that had been removed. I reviewed the literature and suspected the installers missed on the dip switch settings. Sure enough, the internal recirculating pump was not set to "on". I changed the setting and was able to program the unit to generate hot water into an internal buffer tank. The lag time is now the same as with the old heater and if I set up the external recirculation loop it will be virtually no lag.

                      Tankless technology has been in place for a very long time. It works and there are some very good options.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                        Originally posted by Ninjaskillz View Post
                        Wow Seweratz.

                        Sounds to me like you area Rinnai Noritz fanboi.

                        You do know that Navien is NEW, and of course they are going to have problems. You compare them with the BEST units on the market, and call them trash because they don't measure up.

                        Fact is, they are ALOT better than when they came out. They are here to stay. And in the future, they will give the other brands a run for their money.

                        Every one of your posts is just bashing Navien, sigh.

                        The one I put in works JUST FINE. And never had ANY sort of problem.
                        NONE WHATSOEVER. But hey, they are pieces of **** and no one should buy them right?
                        You have installed ONE!

                        After you have installed 15-20 and experienced the much higher callback rate and dealt with Navien come back and make the same statement.

                        Navien are POS when put them against a Rinnai or Noritz, you would know it for a fact if you had spent the last decade dealing with these units.

                        I believe Navien will get their issues worked out but they have an uphill fight to win back the confidence of the Plumbers they have pissed off
                        Last edited by OkieBill; 01-10-2010, 12:54 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                          Tankless units have been around a long time over seas. But the reason they have been around a long time is not because they are the greatest thing since sliced bread. They are being used over there for space savings. Space is a premium over there. So they try to use every cubic inch of it as possible. Also in most cases over seas the tankless heaters and plumbing are all right next to each other so lag time is a non-issue. I have friends that live over seas, they are amazed that we try to get one tankless unit to provide hot water to every fixture. In larger homes they have multiple tankless heaters. One in the kitchen , and one in the bathroom.

                          All brands of tankless water heaters have had growing pains here in the US, and have been redesigning their heaters accordingly. When I first was introduced to tankless water heaters I was unimpressed. In the beginning I went to their required class to learn and be certified to install their product, I was disappointed. The class back then was nothing but a sales pitch, and when we asked technical questions the class instructor (sales rep) could not answer a single one. Within the past year Takagi, Rinnai, and Noritz has improved their classes greatly and have different levels of classes. I have yet seen Navien offer anything like this. Also as for technical support Noritz wins hands down, then Takagi then Rinnai... with Navien comes in dead last.

                          As I said I dealt with them recently and I was unimpressed. Yes they will send you a troubleshooting manual, and if you are tech savoy you can probably troubleshoot the unit. But what about the people that are not very tech savoy? A good tech support on the phone will go a long way.

                          When Navien changes things for the better, and I see it I may start praising them along with the other three. But right now I am going to wait and see. As other contractors have said it is not worth us putting in a unit that is not proven doesn't have the tech support.

                          Oh another factor that has not been brought up but what about parts? How readily available are the parts for you and the brand you choose? I am lucky to be in a major metropolitan area, and have the ability to get parts for the Noritz, Rinnai and Takagi right away or within 24 hours. I know my customers if they have a defective water heater they want it repaired right away, not wait more than 24 hours.
                          Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
                          Ron's Facebook
                          A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
                          Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
                          Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

                          Comment


                          • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                            Its like the people that swear the Whirlpool water heaters work great for them. But many have had issues. But they do not want to hear that. They spent their money on what they believe is the best heater ever.

                            Its also like when a DIY comes to a DIY forum asks the pro's how to do something and gets upset when they are told the right way of doing to meet code. They just wanted a pro to say the way they where planning to install it is OK.

                            Originally posted by OkieBill View Post
                            You have installed ONE!

                            After you have installed 15-20 and experienced the much higher callback rate and dealt with Navien come back and make the same statement.

                            Navien are POS when put them against a Rinnai or Noritz, you would know it for a fact if you had spent the last decade dealing with these units.

                            I believe Navien will get their issues worked out but they have an uphill fight to win back the confidence of the Plumbers they have pissed off
                            Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
                            Ron's Facebook
                            A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
                            Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
                            Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

                            Comment


                            • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                              Originally posted by DuckButter View Post

                              The extent of my personal knowledge/experience with this unit = zip, I repeated what Lee stated per MFG, the unit specs apparently state a 10 degree + - deviation. not me, the MFG.

                              It would appear Seweratz has done some homework on this unit, which then benefits the rest of us, which is why forums like this are golden.

                              I hate to "bash" Navien, but for now I'd rather not install a completely new unit I'm not familiar with and then get a call a few days later at 9pm, all to find myself stuck in a basement baffled at how to explain to my customer there's nothing I can do.

                              Total/Teacher, that's not something you'd understand, you don't do this for a living...regardless how happy you are with your unit, if I install a unit that disappoints my customer I'm the one who gets to invest the added hours monkeying around with manometers, multimeters or informing my customer there'll be additional charges for installing a tempering valve.

                              I do understand your concerns , and I have been there before when after all the service calls the profit is a negative # . This is why most people wait until the BUGS have been worked out of any new unit .

                              Comment


                              • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                                Originally posted by Total View Post
                                I do understand your concerns , and I have been there before when after all the service calls the profit is a negative # . This is why most people wait until the BUGS have been worked out of any new unit .

                                Exactly.

                                My butthead memory had me thinking Navien was American made, which had me rooting for their progress, but with the new discovery on my part that they aren't, I'd just as soon stick with the status quo until I hear Navien has a reasonable price and works well for prolonged periods.

                                Comment

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