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  • Re: Navien tankless heaters

    Originally posted by SewerRatz View Post
    I am glad we are talking about these points since it will help everyone including us. I mean yea I have a few years experience putting these in, but I am still learning every day. Issues I may never have seen yet but others have might sneak up on me one day.

    1.) OK I never experienced and have not had any complaints with hot -cold - hot issues. But I can see this being an issue if you have low flow aerators installed like some of the .5 gpm ones. When people turn on the faucet with such a low flow aerator along with enough cold water to make it a comfortable warm, the unit will not turn on. So this can be an issue and I do address it with the home owners telling them that all faucets should have a 2 gpm aerator installed.

    2) Delay, when the water starts to flow through a tankless heater it only takes a couple seconds for it to start putting out the desired temperature that its set at. So as long as you install the unit in the same spot as the tank there is no real difference.

    3) Power. As I said you can run these heaters on a battery backup. One of the issues I do run into is there is no electrical outlet near by for the tankless heater so I have to inform the home owner they need to hire an electrician to install an outlet.

    4) Yearly Maintenance. Yes I know no one does it to their tank type heater. If they did they would get longer life and efficiency out of them. The larger tank heaters 75 Gal and bigger, I do get hired to delime them.

    5) Gas sizing and venting. Yes most times the service is under sized and you have to put a tee at the meter and bring in a dedicated line from outside, and venting Rinnai is not to expensive, Noritz stainless steel can get up there in price. Navien, Noritz 842, and the Takagi H2 units are PVC venting so they can save a few bucks.

    I to get home owners that lose interest once they here that a unit costs this much, there is going to be about 4 to 6 hours to install it plus parts for water pipe, gas pipe and venting. But you do run into the home owners that are sold on the idea of having a tankless heater.

    One of the selling points is the fact that the first install is the most expensive due to all the work involved putting it in to meet safety and code standards. But once its in, you rarely ever have to buy a new unit. You can always replace the defective parts when they go bad. Compared to a tank type the only part that is replaceable is the dip tube, gas control valve thermocouple, burner assembly, anode rod, and such but once the tank leaks you have to buy a new tank. Where if the heat exchanger leaks on a tankless you just replace the heat exchanger not the whole unit.

    I also explain to them that the savings they will see using a tankless over a tank is not all that great. But in commercial applications I see them saving them lots of money.
    I don't think I could ever install one of these in 4 to 6 hrs.
    Rerouting and supporting all the water piping,hanging & supporting the unit, running a bigger gas line, cutting a hole in outside brick wall of house for vent, testing and adjusting, getting rid of the old heater, capping off old chimney opening, electrical, ect....
    I guess I'm old and slow.

    Comment


    • Re: Navien tankless heaters

      Originally posted by Don the plumber View Post
      I don't think I could ever install one of these in 4 to 6 hrs.
      Rerouting and supporting all the water piping,hanging & supporting the unit, running a bigger gas line, cutting a hole in outside brick wall of house for vent, testing and adjusting, getting rid of the old heater, capping off old chimney opening, electrical, ect....
      I guess I'm old and slow.
      This one took me 6 hours in all to install. The hardest part was holding the heater up by myself and starting the screw into the unistrut.

      Attached Files
      Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
      A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
      Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
      Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

      Comment


      • Re: Navien tankless heaters

        Originally posted by SewerRatz View Post
        This one took me 6 hours in all to install. The hardest part was holding the heater up by myself and starting the screw into the unistrut.

        I'm very impressed. Is this in a garage? 99% of mine would be installed in a cluttered basement, with furnace and ductwork staring you in the face.

        Comment


        • Re: Navien tankless heaters

          Originally posted by SewerRatz View Post
          This one took me 6 hours in all to install. The hardest part was holding the heater up by myself and starting the screw into the unistrut.

          Also on the right side of unit, the copper pipe on left has something on top, is that a vacuum relief valve? And why do you need that, or whatever it is.

          Comment


          • Re: Navien tankless heaters

            Originally posted by Don the plumber View Post
            I'm very impressed. Is this in a garage? 99% of mine would be installed in a cluttered basement, with furnace and ductwork staring you in the face.

            Also on the right side of unit, the copper pipe on left has something on top, is that a vacuum relief valve? And why do you need that, or whatever it is.
            That is in a kitchen of a supermarket. They where using 75 gallon power vent heaters but the negative pressure was causing issues with the new FVIR systems. They had a choice to go with a tankless or a direct vent power vent unit. The wall this is hung on is in the same location where the tank heater was. I wish I had smarts to have taken a before picture.

            That is a vacuum relief valve according to Illinois plumbing code a water heater that is installed above any fixtures needs to have one installed. Since this is on a wall and it is higher than the sinks it serves it needed it per the code. I had to install a brass tee on the heater with a short nipple then the isolation valve. Then on the branch of the tee is the copper pipe to the expansion tank and the relief valve.
            Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
            A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
            Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
            Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

            Comment


            • Re: Navien tankless heaters

              Originally posted by OkieBill View Post
              I guess it is safe to say that your secondary tankless WH line is not Rinnai or Noritz

              Oh yea, Welcome to the Ridgid Boards
              No it's Takagi (was my first)
              Of course after building nice sales in the area Rinnai came knocking after turning me down years ago but who wants them now? They have opened up everyone and drove the tankless market down to 5-10% margins.

              Comment


              • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                Originally posted by Don the plumber View Post
                Lee:
                You sound very knowledgeable to me and hope you keep talkin on this forum. I am gonna take my 1st plunge soon on installing a tankless heater. To be quite honest I have avoided them in the past due to all the issues, everyone talks about, and I'm a 1 man show, and can not afford call backs.

                But the main questions I have right now is this, {no technical questions yet, but they are sure to come}.
                You talk about having to add a mixing valve to outlet of heaters, due to temp. fluctuations. This is a new one on me but just adds to the list of issues with these things. Who pays for all the hours spent, & materials used, fine tuning these things? How can you even think about charging the customer for these unexpected add ons? And how do you stay in business if you don't?
                Actually I wouldn't mind hearing from any of you on this.
                The customer I hope

                I guess it safe to say the pricing is dictated by the company/installer. While the spread tends to be larger in HVAC equipment. I often ask what a install can go for during visits.

                Take a Takagi TK-3 installed on an outside wall with minimal gas piping and water lines. I get responses from customers that they charge as little as $2,000 and as much as $5,000. Now I have never judged the quality of all the installs, and in many cases their are different overheads, but I'm sure the 5,000 guy can afford the call-back.

                Comment


                • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                  Originally posted by Lee H View Post
                  No it's Takagi (was my first)
                  Of course after building nice sales in the area Rinnai came knocking after turning me down years ago but who wants them now? They have opened up everyone and drove the tankless market down to 5-10% margins.

                  You should start a thread on supply house sales tactics, standard mark-ups, negotiating with your supply house for the best price ect...

                  Comment


                  • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                    Originally posted by DuckButter View Post
                    All jabs aside, it sounds to me like the trade off for the Navien's efficiency is both flow restriction and temperature fluctuation.

                    If you really break down the difference in 10% efficiency for say s small family of 3 that maybe spends $50 a month for hot water, you might be talking a difference in savings of $5 a month on the water heating portion of the gas bill.

                    This brings one question up, how much are these units?

                    I get Rinnai or Rheem for $1100 for the 7.5 gpm units, the snorkel kits run another $300, which is a perk for the Navien if the base price is reasonable.

                    That ten degree temperature fluctuation, though, is a tough sell.
                    10 degrees can be tough in certain circumstances. I sometimes say when a tank runs out its temp fluctuation just keeps dropping.

                    On a serious note though, good shower valves with temp control never experience temp changes from a tankless. Cant say that for a cheapo château, 2 or 3-handle valves though, those 3 tend to have the biggest difficulties with tankless.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                      Originally posted by OkieBill View Post
                      You should start a thread on supply house sales tactics, standard mark-ups, negotiating with your supply house for the best price ect...
                      Now that thread would top this one for sure!!!!!!!

                      I will say that after all expenses and biz tax the average net profit is in the 3-5% range

                      Comment


                      • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                        Originally posted by SewerRatz View Post
                        This one took me 6 hours in all to install. The hardest part was holding the heater up by myself and starting the screw into the unistrut.
                        Nice job.

                        Code requires us to use V-breakers as well, installed a minimum 6" above tank, but recently I made note with an inspector that the breaker is intended to prevent vacuums from street main shut downs from crushing a tank, our code is worded that way with the word "tank" in it which means they're technically not required on a tankless.

                        On an ironic note, we're not required to use expansion tanks, which in my opinion is dumb, but I didn't write the code, it just gives me the occasional tank to add on those service calls for "mystery" ticks and squeaks.

                        I just installed the same one 3 weeks ago, took me 12 hours, but I had to increase/repipe the main and add a snorkel because the vent was too close to grade for our snowfall per MFG plus nat'l weather standard.

                        I have a trick for holding them up, keep a 1-1/2" PVC vent tee on the truck, cut and dry fit three pieces of PVC just long enough to make a tee that's just slightly too long to stand under the unit straight for the position you want it to mount.

                        Put the unit against the wall or frame with the PVC tee under it, the nipples keep the tee from sliding out to the back, keeping your cordless and a temporary drywall screw within reach (or tool belt), adjust the height and swing it into place side to side, then as you balance the unit screw the drywall screw in, or tighten the bolt in your case with the unistrut.

                        I'll usually leave a pencil mark on the frame, wall or stud to know my center and height, also leave the concentric 90 in place attached to the exterior stub to visually confirm a good fit.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                          Originally posted by Lee H View Post
                          10 degrees can be tough in certain circumstances. I sometimes say when a tank runs out its temp fluctuation just keeps dropping.

                          On a serious note though, good shower valves with temp control never experience temp changes from a tankless. Cant say that for a cheapo château, 2 or 3-handle valves though, those 3 tend to have the biggest difficulties with tankless.
                          Spoken like a true salesman, rather than focus on the unit, focus on replacing the shower valves -

                          On a serious note, I'm getting the impression you work in plumbing sales, a probable asset to the forum, not to mention you can indulge in being the target of groups of plumbers complaining, after a long day of being targeted by groups of plumbers complaining.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                            Originally posted by DuckButter View Post
                            Spoken like a true salesman, rather than focus on the unit, focus on replacing the shower valves -

                            On a serious note, I'm getting the impression you work in plumbing sales, a probable asset to the forum, not to mention you can indulge in being the target of groups of plumbers complaining, after a long day of being targeted by groups of plumbers complaining.
                            Happy plumbers, piss me off!!

                            Comment


                            • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                              Originally posted by Don the plumber View Post
                              Happy plumbers, piss me off!!

                              Oh, feel free to scroll through some of my 3,300, or so, posts...there's a whole lotta "happiness" there for ya.

                              So little time...so many tools to throw.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                                Originally posted by DuckButter View Post

                                Oh, feel free to scroll through some of my 3,300, or so, posts...there's a whole lotta "happiness" there for ya.

                                So little time...so many tools to throw.
                                RED SOX SUCK!

                                J.C.

                                Comment

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