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  • Re: Navien tankless heaters

    Originally posted by DuckButter View Post
    Spoken like a true salesman, rather than focus on the unit, focus on replacing the shower valves -

    On a serious note, I'm getting the impression you work in plumbing sales, a probable asset to the forum, not to mention you can indulge in being the target of groups of plumbers complaining, after a long day of being targeted by groups of plumbers complaining.
    In wholesale distribution, warehouse guy to owner everyone must sell or your out of a job before we are out of business

    Comment


    • Re: Navien tankless heaters

      After this weekend i feel the need to contribute to this thread again. I am not a pro. I have a CR240A in conjunction with a Heating Box, installed June 2008. The plumber is a 2nd cousin who has installed other Naviens and has had no problems with them.

      Ours however has been a problem almost since we started using it. At I have posted these problems before. Korean engineers came to our house 3 times last winter to sort out problems.

      So far this winter the machine has shut down on us 5 times - once when i was in the shower, once when my wife was (that was worse because she has no patience). Only once of those 5 times did we get an error message - the air intake was clogged. Fine, that is not the unit's fault. Other times it just decides to cut out and needs to be turned back on, or the flow sensor is sticking.

      This weekend however, did it. Wake up Sat morning and the flow sensor has gone again (we are now on our 4th one). Changed that out myself (our plumber lives 1.5 hours away). Three hours wasted again, on the phone and running around to pick up the part and replace it. And then to my astonishment, water is leaking out of the condensate hose. Check water meter, sure enough, water is running right through the Nav. Now we have to shut the hot water off to the house whenever we are not using it so that our water bill doesn't skyrocket.

      We spent a lot of money on this system. We went with our plumber's recommendation because as a family member we trusted him. My wife pointed out that if we had called the plumber every time we had a problem with this setup, it would have been replaced a long time ago. She is right. I have probably invested about 30-40 hours of my own time in fixing/servicing it. I didn't want to bother the plumber every time because he lived far away and i felt for him and his time and his business as a sole proprietor. But in the end, it was no longer tolerable. He is coming Wednesday to replace it with a new unit. No charge. Navien again. I certainly hope they have upped their game. The thing has been vibrating a lot on start up over the past couple of months too - i am happy to see it go.

      Last note about tech support - i was always impressed with it in the first year of calling. They were able to walk me through many fixes and helped me not have to call and wait for my plumber to change the course of his life to help us. But this weekend i was shocked - there is no more after hours tech help? I had to wait 20 min on the phone to talk to a kid who took my name and said the tech would call back in 4 hours or so - during work hours! He is the one who said no more after hours tech help. I hope that was incorrect info from an inept kid.

      I realize that there are a lot of units installed out there and what you are hearing here is a select group of possibly more disgruntled than average Nav users (i went looking and found this forum because i was having problems with it). I am still hopeful that i can be one of those what i am sure are many happy Nav users. I know some of you will call me crazy. I think i'll keep a flow sensor on hand just in case.

      For what it's worth, that is my story.
      Last edited by riproy; 01-11-2010, 08:00 PM.

      Comment


      • Re: Navien tankless heaters

        Originally posted by riproy View Post
        After this weekend i feel the need to contribute to this thread again. I am not a pro. I have a CR240A in conjunction with a Heating Box, installed June 2008. The plumber is a distant relative who has installed other Naviens and has had no problems with them.

        Ours however has been a problem almost since we started using it. At I have posted these problems before. Korean engineers came to our house 3 times last winter to sort out problems.

        So far this winter the machine has shut down on us 5 times - once when i was in the shower, once when my wife was (that was worse because she has no patience). Only once of those 5 times did we get an error message - the air intake was clogged. Fine, that is not the machine's fault. Other times it just decides to cut out and needs to be turned back on.

        This weekend however, did it. Wake up Sat morning and the flow sensor has gone again (we are now on our 4th one). Changed that out myself (our plumber lives 1.5 hours away). Three hours wasted again, on the phone and running around to pick up the part and replace it. And then to my astonishment, water is leaking out of the condensate hose. Check water meter, sure enough, water is running right through the Nav. Now we have to shut the hot water off to the house whenever we are not using it so that our water bill doesn't skyrocket.

        We spent a lot of money on this system. We went with our plumber's recommendation because as a family member we trusted him. My wife pointed out that if we had called the plumber every time we had a problem with this setup, it would have been replaced a long time ago. She is right. I have probably invested about 30-40 hours of my own time in fixing/servicing it. I didn't want to bother the plumber every time because he lived far away and i felt for him and his time and his business as a sole proprietor. But in the end, it was no longer tolerable. He is coming Wednesday to replace it with a new unit. No charge. Navien again. I certainly hope they have upped their game. The thing has been vibrating a lot on start up over the past couple of months too - i am happy to see it go.

        Last note about tech support - i was always impressed with it in the first year of calling. They were able to walk me through many fixes and helped my not have to call and wait for my plumber to change the course of his life to help us. But this weekend i was shocked - there is no more after hours tech help? I had to wait 20 min on the phone to talk to a kid who took my name and said the tech would call back in 4 hours or so - during work hours! He is the one who said no more after hours tech help. I hope that was incorrect info from an inept kid.

        I realize that there are a lot of units installed out there and what you are hearing here is a select group of possibly more disgruntled than average Nav users (i went looking and found this forum because i was having problems with it). I think i'll keep a flow sensor on hand just in case. I am still hopeful that i can be one of those what i am sure are many happy Nav users. I know some of you will call me crazy.

        For what it's worth, that is my story.
        I am going to take the plunge and possibly install a Noritz unit in the next couple of weeks. I have only installed 1 so far, and that was at my supply house, so they could show it. I am known for being a perfectionist in pipe workings, so I guess thats why they had me do it. Turned out nice and have had no issues in 5yrs, but they don't use showers there either. I guess I have to start estimating these things, and get with the new technology. If you can't beat em, join em.

        But as with your experience I don't see the draw to these tankless heaters, yet. Too many problems. I bet every time you get in the shower your skeptical about having hot water. I rarely ever get a call back on a tank type heater. Put it in once and forget it until 10 or 15 yrs from now, when it starts leaking. No- one wants to descale or replace flow controls, or add on mixing valves, or have to repair any of the other numerous issues with these things.
        And you never know there is a problem, until you have no hot water.

        I'm surprised you don't just put a tank type heater in, due to all you bad experiences. If we had no hot water more than two or 3 times, I guarantee my wife would throw me and that heater, out the door
        Good luck though, with that new heater.

        Comment


        • Re: Navien tankless heaters

          Originally posted by riproy View Post
          After this weekend i feel the need to contribute to this thread again. I am not a pro. I have a CR240A in conjunction with a Heating Box, installed June 2008. .....................

          ........ I know some of you will call me crazy. I think i'll keep a flow sensor on hand just in case.

          For what it's worth, that is my story.
          I truncated your post for space, just wanted to thank you for taking the time to fill us in.

          Also, with the fact that the flow sensor goes so frequently, were you flushing the unit regularly?

          You may well have unusually hard water.

          Comment


          • Re: Navien tankless heaters

            "water is leaking out of the condensate hose. Check water meter, sure enough, water is running right through the Nav. Now we have to shut the hot water off to the house whenever we are not using it so that our water bill doesn't skyrocket."

            In your unit are two thumbwheel operated purge valves, most likely they were not/are closed, these purge into the condensate drain.

            Comment


            • Re: Navien tankless heaters

              Originally posted by Lee H View Post
              "water is leaking out of the condensate hose. Check water meter, sure enough, water is running right through the Nav. Now we have to shut the hot water off to the house whenever we are not using it so that our water bill doesn't skyrocket."

              In your unit are two thumbwheel operated purge valves, most likely they were not/are closed, these purge into the condensate drain.
              But how does one of these valves magicly open themselves?
              Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
              A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
              Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
              Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

              Comment


              • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                Originally posted by SewerRatz View Post
                But how does one of these valves magicly open themselves?
                How does any valve or faucet open, they do when not tight.

                Maybe it was never closed at last service????????

                Comment


                • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                  How do you explain all his other problems? The way customer service is now?

                  I mean come on, 4 flow sensors, having the unit shut down with no codes, and the recent excess vibrating. All these issues in a unit that is less than 2 years old. You are going to tell me with a straight face that this gentleman's issues are nothing but user error. AS he stated there has been issues from day one. Korean engineers went to his home for this unit and he still has problems.
                  Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
                  A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
                  Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
                  Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

                  Comment


                  • Re: Navien tankless heaters



                    Also, with the fact that the flow sensor goes so frequently, were you flushing the unit regularly?

                    You may well have unusually hard water.
                    [/QUOTE]

                    We do have water that is on the hard side. I flushed it in Aug and again in Dec 2009 because i was paranoid of scaling.

                    Thanks.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                      In your unit are two thumbwheel operated purge valves, most likely they were not/are closed, these purge into the condensate drain.[/QUOTE]

                      Most likely, perhaps. But not the case here. I open both and i close both when draining. Triple checked and they are closed tight. I have drained this unit so often that i can do this procedure blindfolded.

                      Thanks.
                      Last edited by riproy; 01-12-2010, 12:33 AM.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                        Originally posted by SewerRatz View Post
                        How do you explain all his other problems? The way customer service is now?

                        I mean come on, 4 flow sensors, having the unit shut down with no codes, and the recent excess vibrating. All these issues in a unit that is less than 2 years old. You are going to tell me with a straight face that this gentleman's issues are nothing but user error. AS he stated there has been issues from day one. Korean engineers went to his home for this unit and he still has problems.

                        I thought all of our problems were due to installation error

                        Maybe if their was a mixing valve installed that would solve it

                        Navien =

                        Maybe I should start calling them "Naiven"
                        Last edited by OkieBill; 01-12-2010, 12:11 AM. Reason: Had one more zinger to add

                        Comment


                        • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                          Originally posted by Don the plumber View Post

                          I'm surprised you don't just put a tank type heater in, due to all you bad experiences. If we had no hot water more than two or 3 times, I guarantee my wife would throw me and that heater, out the door
                          Good luck though, with that new heater.
                          Thanks Don. My wife has been mad enough to toss me out, but using this plumber (her relative) was her idea.

                          I am trying to be optimistic. I do like new technology and i guess i ask for problems when i am an early (relatively) adopter. Now we have built ourselves into a corner literally and a tank sized for our usage would be rather tight in furnace room. But doable if this experiment really doesn't work out. I can do without some shelving if it means consistent and dependable HW. I just don't want to have to pay for a new appliance, piping, etc.

                          Give me a few months and i will report back. Good luck with your install.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                            Originally posted by Total View Post
                            Sounds maybe like a flow valve issue - I uploaded a how to from Navien to my server , http://www.extremetesting.tv/technical_202_WFS.ppt
                            you can check the flow valve very easy , and it might just need a good cleaning - detailed instuctions are in the file above ..
                            Thanks Total for the docs, and others for your contributions. I have found the Navien tech support continues to be responsive and available. But I am learning more from this forum than any other source!

                            I had forgot to reprogram the circulation pump after replacing circuit board. Now hot water is coming on quick after reprograming. My mistake on that one. With the new board, the hot water is staying at constant temperature well. With the old board it waivered around for 10-20 seconds whe first coming on.

                            Navien sent out a new flow sensor. Have yet to get it installed as unit has been working reliably lately. Judging from the posts on this thread made about flow sensors not working and particles in the water jamming the sensor, I am encouraged to think that is what has caused my unit to not come on once in awhile. My hunch is that the sensor might have received sediements when I raised the water pressure a while back after wife complaints about low pressure in shower while toilet filling. I will also put in the 5micron filter on the water inlet that was recommended on this thread when I mess with the sensor.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                              Originally posted by OkieBill View Post
                              I thought all of our problems were due to installation error

                              Maybe if their was a mixing valve installed that would solve it

                              Navien =

                              Maybe I should start calling them "Naiven"
                              wow - I'm unsubscribing from this thread - to much negative energy ( Go do some plumbing instead of bashing , lol )

                              Comment


                              • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                                See our point is as plumbers we can not install or sell a product with this many issues. That is why the very first unit I backed 100% was Noritz. I have never had any service calls on any of the units I have installed. The second one I backed is Rinnai, again no call backs on the units I have installed. Third one I just recently started to back is Takagi. In the beginning I was unimpressed, but after taking a few of their technical classes I see the insides are very close to what Noritz is doing. That impressed me a lot.

                                maybe a few years down the road Navien will get their issues worked out and have more local parts suppliers. But as it is right now my customers would never call me again if I could not get their water heaters up and running in 24 hours.
                                Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
                                A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
                                Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
                                Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

                                Comment

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