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  • Re: Navien tankless heaters

    I'm with you Ron, first choice = Noritz, second choice Rinnai, no problems with either of them. I don't know anything about Navien except what I hear on the forum and that hasn't been very good.
    The Other Rick

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    • Re: Navien tankless heaters

      Originally posted by SewerRatz View Post
      See our point is as plumbers we can not install or sell a product with this many issues. That is why the very first unit I backed 100% was Noritz. I have never had any service calls on any of the units I have installed. The second one I backed is Rinnai, again no call backs on the units I have installed. Third one I just recently started to back is Takagi. In the beginning I was unimpressed, but after taking a few of their technical classes I see the insides are very close to what Noritz is doing. That impressed me a lot.

      maybe a few years down the road Navien will get their issues worked out and have more local parts suppliers. But as it is right now my customers would never call me again if I could not get their water heaters up and running in 24 hours.
      Very well said Ron. I don't know why teacher guy is so sensitive. It's not bashing it's the truth about your experiences.
      I'm not trying to bash teacher either, I just think he has no idea how costly it is, or how demoralizing it is, to have even 1 call back, let alone several call backs, for the same unit.
      Also none of us want to be the guinee pig, trying these units out. If you have no problems with 1 manufacturer, then I want to hear from you about it. All of us read these threads, to not only gain knowledge, but maybe save our a$$e$ from losing, not only a bundle of money, but possibly a customer too.
      If I had to go back to a customers house, for no hot water, more than 1 time, they don't care that, the 1st time it was a flow switch, 2nd time it was error message, or lime build up, 3rd time it was something else, and now on top of that it's vibrating, and making loud noises ect...., all this after only 2yrs. All this customer knows is the hot water has been off several times and this idiot plumber has been back several times, and it keeps happening. This customer will think I have no Idea what the hell I'm doing.
      Last edited by Don the plumber; 01-12-2010, 07:28 AM.

      Comment


      • Re: Navien tankless heaters

        Originally posted by Total View Post
        wow - I'm unsubscribing from this thread - to much negative energy ( Go do some plumbing instead of bashing , lol )
        You should. Then maybe you wouldn't be putting out false information to homeowners & installers.

        There's something that I just can't beat into manufacturers and people that may like their products brains:

        I don't do these multiple troubleshooting callbacks.

        Put in a tempering valve.
        Adjust the dip switches.
        Call the 1-800 number.
        Then this, then that.

        Have you lost you mind?

        You can say read the manuals (which I do, even for TANK heaters) but then you still have to troubleshoot multiple things based on the manual. That would be alot of fun if you were to put in many of these things. Running around everywhere for nothing.

        I've seen and read enough of Seweratz & Okiebills opinions & work to know that we've been in some of the same situations coming to similar conclusions.

        So when they tell me that Navien has some work to do, they do.

        J.C.

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        • Re: Navien tankless heaters

          Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
          You should. Then maybe you wouldn't be putting out false information to homeowners & installers.

          There's something that I just can't beat into manufacturers and people that may like their products brains:

          I don't do these multiple troubleshooting callbacks.

          Put in a tempering valve.
          Adjust the dip switches.
          Call the 1-800 number.
          Then this, then that.

          Have you lost you mind?

          You can say read the manuals (which I do, even for TANK heaters) but then you still have to troubleshoot multiple things based on the manual. That would be alot of fun if you were to put in many of these things. Running around everywhere for nothing.

          I've seen and read enough of Seweratz & Okiebills opinions & work to know that we've been in some of the same situations coming to similar conclusions.

          So when they tell me that Navien has some work to do, they do.

          J.C.
          You guys can always say it better than me. I agree 100%
          I want to also add that these call backs, with supposedly easy fix solutions, by just calling the 1-800 LOS-WAGE#, or going over the manual for the umteenth time, originated while I was on the other side of town, doing a job that I was actually making money on!!

          Comment


          • Re: Navien tankless heaters

            Howdy everyone. Wow, it sure took me a long time to read (okay I didn't really read it all, but skimmed) the entire thread. I am in plumbing and HVAC sales (aren't many of us here). I became the test rat for our first Navien, which by the way, I have loved since we put it in. We installed the Navien CR240A with an AquaPure Sediment pre-filter.

            1. Gas Usage - My average Gas usage in the summer time (the only gas appliance I have in the summer is my Water Heater) went from a 4 year average of 40CCF's to 10CCF's. So... it is hard to say that I am not seeing any savings when I am seeing 75% less gas usage.

            2. Altitude - The reason we are installing the Navien, is it is the first tankless that we have had good success with at our altitude of 6500 feet, we have installed these in Woodland Park, CO as well which reaches around 9000 feet.

            3. Installation - Most of our homes here thought that it was a good idea to put the mech room in the middle of a finished basement . So... instead of running 30 to 50' of stainless, the Navien has made life wonderful by being able to install PVC instead. Cheaper and easier to work with, my GPM (Sales term for Gross Profit Margin, commonly confused with Gallons Per Minute ) go way up when my plumbers are not having to work with stainless. The mounting bracket has made life nice as well instead of using unistrut.

            4. Sales - Navien will be around to stay because it is an easy sale to customers, our average tickets go up, and to tell a customer 98% efficient vs. 85% efficient is a no-brainer. Now, granted, the average cost is higher with the Navien, no question. But as long as Salesmen are selling them and can make more money on them, Navien will never go away. With the Federal tax credit of 30% as well, the Navien doesn't seem so expensive anymore. The buffer tank is a huge sales point, customers want to be able to shave without having to turn on full pressure.

            Now, being GREEN, is a huge thing here in Colorado, now don't flame me for this one, I don't care one way or another, but as a salesmen, green means more green for me. So, 98% efficiency, tax credit, PVC, low emmissions = Sale.

            5. Getting bored yet? - Bottom line, I agree that selling a tanked water heater is easy, under a grand and you have a new water heater ever 8-10 years. But, get the customer something to tell their friends about, ability to fill your jaccuzzi tub, be part of the GREEN movement , etc. It is a good unit and easy to sell.

            I'll post more of my thoughts, but I am heading out on a tankless estimate now. Thanks for your time and I hope to hear from some of you.

            P.S. Without plumbers, these wouldn't get installed at all, so thank you for what you do.
            Last edited by Kitokatlin; 01-12-2010, 12:34 PM.

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            • Re: Navien tankless heaters

              What will you do when you get your first Noritz heat exchanger failure? Condemn the whole line?

              Comment


              • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                Originally posted by Lee H View Post
                What will you do when you get your first Noritz heat exchanger failure? Condemn the whole line?
                I know you weren't talking to me but this is just my opinion.
                If the manufacturers of these units think their so great, then why not back it up with guarateed labor cost, for diagnosing and fixing the problem. If Noritz heat exchanger fails and they pay to fix their own defect, then I'm sure most contractors would use the product. But that will never happen.
                The contractor is always suppose to happily eat the costs of manufacturers "getting the bugs out".

                Comment


                • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                  Originally posted by Don the plumber View Post
                  I know you weren't talking to me but this is just my opinion.
                  If the manufacturers of these units think their so great, then why not back it up with guarateed labor cost, for diagnosing and fixing the problem. If Noritz heat exchanger fails and they pay to fix their own defect, then I'm sure most contractors would use the product. But that will never happen.
                  The contractor is always suppose to happily eat the costs of manufacturers "getting the bugs out".
                  Where have you been?
                  Tankless companies have established flat rate labor policies.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                    Originally posted by Lee H View Post
                    Where have you been?
                    Tankless companies have established flat rate labor policies.
                    I've been installing tank heaters. LOL

                    Comment


                    • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                      Originally posted by Lee H View Post
                      What will you do when you get your first Noritz heat exchanger failure? Condemn the whole line?

                      Well Mr Lee,I installed Noritz for over 4 years. Only call I got was a 6 unit install that had issues of the softener throwing out its media beads and clogging the filters at the units. They replaced the softener and we installed a large filter to the supply of these heaters problem solved. Installed Rinnai for two years now, no call backs. Started Takagi a year ago, no problems yet.

                      BUT I have been called to many homes that has Navien units installed with problems. They reason they stopped calling the installer is the installer gave up trying to deal with all these troubles. I say in the last 4 years I replaced 6 Navien units with a Noritz, each customer is very happy.

                      I would be super happy to see any of these heaters last more than 6 years with out any issues other than normal maintenance. As I said in my last post I CAN NOT INSTALL A UNIT WITH SO MANY ISSUES, IT IS NOT COST EFFECTIVE FOR ME AND NOT FAR TO MY CUSTOMERS. Once Navien has worked out their issues and has a better service support and more local part supplies I will reconsider them and might start to sell them As of right now I am not going to make my customers a guinea pig for a product that has known issues.


                      The above statement goes for Whirlpool water heaters. I get home owners wanting me to install them for them but they have tons of known issues I refuse to install them as well. Same goes for any other product that has issues that would cost me my time and my customers money. People call me to do an A1 job for them, not a second rate job.
                      Last edited by SewerRatz; 01-12-2010, 06:11 PM.
                      Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
                      Ron's Facebook
                      A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
                      Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
                      Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

                      Comment


                      • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                        Originally posted by Kitokatlin View Post
                        Howdy everyone. Wow, it sure took me a long time to read (okay I didn't really read it all, but skimmed) the entire thread. I am in plumbing and HVAC sales (aren't many of us here). I became the test rat for our first Navien, which by the way, I have loved since we put it in. We installed the Navien CR240A with an AquaPure Sediment pre-filter.

                        1. Gas Usage - My average Gas usage in the summer time (the only gas appliance I have in the summer is my Water Heater) went from a 4 year average of 40CCF's to 10CCF's. So... it is hard to say that I am not seeing any savings when I am seeing 75% less gas usage. (Would you like to put that in terms of actual dollars saved so your customers can calculate a payback on their investment, probably not huh...lol)

                        2. Altitude - The reason we are installing the Navien, is it is the first tankless that we have had good success with at our altitude of 6500 feet, we have installed these in Woodland Park, CO as well which reaches around 9000 feet.

                        3. Installation - Most of our homes here thought that it was a good idea to put the mech room in the middle of a finished basement . So... instead of running 30 to 50' of stainless, the Navien has made life wonderful by being able to install PVC instead. Cheaper and easier to work with, my GPM (Sales term for Gross Profit Margin, commonly confused with Gallons Per Minute ) go way up when my plumbers are not having to work with stainless. The mounting bracket has made life nice as well instead of using unistrut. (Rinnai does not require stainless so Navien was not your only option but someone who does not know that fact reading this thread could be mislead)

                        4. Sales - Navien will be around to stay because it is an easy sale to customers, our average tickets go up, and to tell a customer 98% efficient vs. 85% efficient is a no-brainer. Now, granted, the average cost is higher with the Navien, no question. But as long as Salesmen are selling them and can make more money on them, Navien will never go away. With the Federal tax credit of 30% as well, the Navien doesn't seem so expensive anymore. The buffer tank is a huge sales point, customers want to be able to shave without having to turn on full pressure.
                        (Wow, now the truth starts showing.... $$$$$$$$$.)

                        Now, being GREEN, is a huge thing here in Colorado, now don't flame me for this one, I don't care one way or another, but as a salesmen, green means more green for me. So, 98% efficiency, tax credit, PVC, low emmissions = Sale. (Why do you suppose you would get flamed for this??? Could the truth have something to do with it???)

                        5. Getting bored yet? - Bottom line, I agree that selling a tanked water heater is easy, under a grand and you have a new water heater ever 8-10 years. But, get the customer something to tell their friends about, ability to fill your jaccuzzi tub, be part of the GREEN movement , etc. It is a good unit and easy to sell. ( You have already shown where your motivation is at Mr. GPM you are the same guys who were selling tankless heaters as the next big thing 20 years ago. Something to tell their friends about? What a great selling point...LOL I agree that a tankless WH will give you almost unlimited HW which is the only positive sales point of any tankless line (large family / high usage). You do realize that the $1500 tax credit is a form of stimulus to push sales and really has nothing to do with "Green" Wanna bet which unit has the larger carbon footprint between a standard Tank WH and a tankless Water heater, I'm gonna give you a hint one has to use electricity AND gas to make hot water so don't tell the tree huggers... )

                        I'll post more of my thoughts, but I am heading out on a tankless estimate now. Thanks for your time and I hope to hear from some of you. (Please post more wisdom:-) but be ready to back up what you say...)

                        P.S. Without plumbers, these wouldn't get installed at all, so thank you for what you do.
                        ( I don't know any plumbers that will still install a Navien but your welcome all the same)

                        I find it fascinating that all of the sales guys are the ones telling the installers they are wrong or how much they love their "Naiven" Tankless heater.

                        To all of you sales guys
                        Until you install and service the equipment you are professing as great your opinion is biased in favor of your wallets and almighty profit margin.

                        I do not care what brand of gas tankless a customer installs as long as it is not a Navien tankless heater due to the issues mentioned in this thread can you as a "sales guy" give the same advice??? I doubt it...

                        -- Remember the lines you are taught to use on your retail customers don't work on Pro's So if you would like to discuss any of the sales points you use by all means step up to bat.

                        This discussion is indexed pretty highly on google so lots of potential Navien customers are reading these threads now is your chance to set the pros straight

                        Total: Did you really take your ball and go home? That is a shame because between all the sarcasm we have around here we manage to have some great discussions so if you decide to put on your big girl panties and come back I would enjoy your continued input in this thread.

                        Bill
                        Last edited by OkieBill; 01-12-2010, 06:41 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                          Originally posted by OkieBill View Post
                          ( I don't know any plumbers that will still install a Navien but your welcome all the same)

                          I find it fascinating that all of the sales guys are the ones telling the installers they are wrong or how much they love their "Naiven" Tankless heater.

                          To all of you sales guys
                          Until you install and service the equipment you are professing as great your opinion is biased in favor of your wallets and almighty profit margin.

                          I do not care what brand of gas tankless a customer installs as long as it is not a Navien tankless heater due to the issues mentioned in this thread can you as a "sales guy" give the same advice??? I doubt it...

                          -- Remember the lines you are taught to use on your retail customers don't work on Pro's So if you would like to discuss any of the sales points you use by all means step up to bat.

                          This discussion is indexed pretty highly on google so lots of potential Navien customers are reading these threads now is your chance to set the pros straight

                          Total: Did you really take your ball and go home? That is a shame because between all the sarcasm we have around here we manage to have some great discussions so if you decide to put on your big girl panties and come back I would enjoy your continued input in this thread.

                          Bill

                          Sorry - had a long day and my comments were not called for ......
                          Last edited by Total; 01-12-2010, 07:03 PM. Reason: bad judgement ..

                          Comment


                          • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                            Originally posted by Total View Post
                            Sorry - had a long day and my comments were not called for ......
                            We all have bad days, The better person can admit it and move on

                            Comment


                            • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                              That is the exact difference between pros and salesmen. First off, I used to install this "crap" as you would call it, I just happened to not want to spend 8 hours in a crawlspace anymore. Those are not "sales tactics" anyway. Customers truly do love to tell their friends about their new tankless water heater. One of the reasons I stopped being an installer was the negativity towards the customers. You only want to put in what is easy and cheap for the customer. Sometimes the customer doesn't want a cheap or easy install. Why do you buy Sony TV vs Insignia TV? Is it because Sony is better, no, you buy it so you can say, I have a Sony TV.

                              I asked not to get flamed for it because not everyone believes in being green, it was a simple request, to which you decided to flame me anyway, so thanks for that. And it is not just about the money for a salesmen, what I was getting at is that we make more by selling a better product to the customer, we call that a win/win situation. When your install fails, guess who gets the phone call, we do, not you (unless you have to where you work), so it is in my best interest to make sure the customer is happy with what we install.

                              As far as the 75% savings on my utility bill, it is about $50/month. I don't know about you but I can use that $50/month, makes a nice difference. The reason we don't use dollars is everyone will see a different savings based on family size, size of tubs, etc... oh wait, I don't need to tell you that, you are a pro.

                              If you are having such a long day at work being a plumber, and then come on here and treat someone like crap, maybe you too need to find a new profession, do you take that agression out on your family too? Thanks for the apology, but delete your post instead of just giving an excuse. To delete the post, I'll explain in simple terms, I know you're a "pro" and don't get it, click on "edit/delete Post" it is the blue "edit" button with the little scissors on it.

                              My Master plumbers install this product with grace and positive attitude, my customers love us and them... hence the reason we are still in business.

                              So, time for my excuse, I did not have a hard day, I love my job and my customers, and my only apology is to the other "pros" on this thread who are kind and love their jobs, thanks to you.
                              Last edited by Kitokatlin; 01-13-2010, 10:18 AM.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                                Originally posted by Kitokatlin View Post
                                That is the exact difference between pros and salesmen. First off, I used to install this "crap" as you would call it, I just happened to not want to spend 8 hours in a crawlspace anymore. Those are not "sales tactics" anyway. Customers truly do love to tell their friends about their new tankless water heater. One of the reasons I stopped being an installer was the negativity towards the customers. You only want to put in what is easy and cheap for the customer. Sometimes the customer doesn't want a cheap or easy install. Why do you buy Sony TV vs Insignia TV? Is it because Sony is better, no, you buy it so you can say, I have a Sony TV.

                                I asked not to get flamed for it because not everyone believes in being green, it was a simple request, to which you decided to flame me anyway, so thanks for that. And it is not just about the money for a salesmen, what I was getting at is that we make more by selling a better product to the customer, we call that a win/win situation. When your install fails, guess who gets the phone call, we do, not you (unless you have to where you work), so it is in my best interest to make sure the customer is happy with what we install.

                                As far as the 75% savings on my utility bill, it is about $50/month. I don't know about you but I can use that $50/month, makes a nice difference. The reason we don't use dollars is everyone will see a different savings based on family size, size of tubs, etc... oh wait, I don't need to tell you that, you are a pro.

                                If you are having such a long day at work being a plumber, and then come on here and treat someone like crap, maybe you too need to find a new profession, do you take that agression out on your family too? Thanks for the apology, but delete your post instead of just giving an excuse. To delete the post, I'll explain in simple terms, I know you're a "pro" and don't get it, click on "edit/delete Post" it is the blue "edit" button with the little scissors on it.

                                My Master plumbers install this product with grace and positive attitude, my customers love us and them... hence the reason we are still in business.

                                So, time for my excuse, I did not have a hard day, I love my job and my customers, and my only apology is to the other "pros" on this thread who are kind and love their jobs, thanks to you.
                                did you actually read my post ?? Before I deleted the contents ?? Or do you have a crystal ball ???

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