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  • Re: Navien tankless heaters

    Originally posted by wookie View Post
    After installing and working on Takagi and Noritz I drank the Bosch Pro Tankless koolaid. If you open up a Bosch, Takagi, Noritz and Rinnai side by side you will appreciate the Bosch as a service guy.

    BUT........

    Bosch until recently had a great local showroom and AWESOME tech in Chris Rizzo. Bosch decided to bypass the distributors and sell direct. Understandably pizzin off a lot of people who worked hard to promote the brand. SMOOTH MOVE BOSCH KNUCKLEHEADS! Nobody carries the Bosch as yet, I have to get them from the new manufactors rep, who has been VERY helpful. When a customer wants a tankless and its a good fit I'm still gonna spec the Bosch PRO series. I HOPE this does not come back to bite me!

    Good installation is KEY in any brand, but I'd really like the Bosch guts.

    wookie

    Had great tech support from Bosch when I had a local guy to contact 24/7 Thanks Chris Rizzo and Bob Brown. Right now its generic 8-4 m-f support. Maybe the manufactors haven't heard, equipment goes down after banking hours.lol

    I just installed a Bosch Pro (Non condensing model). Competitive with Rinnai as far as prices go...

    Pretty standard EXCEPT for the HIGH DOLLAR stainless steel single wall vent pipe and the $300 Roof Vent and drain Kit.

    I will not install one of these again, Next time I will install one of the Condensing models and use PVC for venting, by the time you price in the high dollar stainless exhaust on the lower efficiency model you just paid for the higher efficiency unit.
    Last edited by OkieBill; 10-19-2012, 06:54 PM.

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    • Re: Navien tankless heaters

      Agree on ss vent. Most of my installs are exterior so just vent cap.

      wookie

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      • Re: Navien tankless heaters

        Originally posted by geno gardner View Post
        Two days ago I was leaving a local plumbing supply house and a guy gets out of his minivan and asks me if I'm a plumber. I lied and said yes.

        He asks me if I want a slightly used tankless water heater. I must have looked at him strangely because he told me it wasn't stolen. His story, documented by his purchase receipt all warranty documentation, and people from the supply house.

        He bought the unit, a CR-180(A) in 2009. In early 2010 the heat exchanger literally exploded. He received a new heat exchanger under warranty in January 2010. This last week the unit wouldn't fire and the board told him it was a faulty igniter.

        According to the salesman I spoke to later the fellow showed up at 4:15 last Friday and wanted the igniter. When it wasn't available the fellow went ballistic and stormed out.

        The fellow went to Menard's bought a 40 gallon water heater and installed it. Then this week he took the Navien tankless heater and drove an hour into town to this supply house and gave me the unit.

        He gave me two remotes, the heater, and all paperwork which was backed up by the supply house. The heat exchanger is a bit over a year old. The igniter costs ~$30. Other than that it is supposed to be OK.

        So my question is should I take this thing to the scrapyard. Use it as a boat anchor. Put it somewhere as a test unit. Put it in my house and use the water heater as a storage tank and put in a recirc pump. (just to have some fun) What would the wise person do?
        Geno, I had just replaced a heat exchanger in a Noritz, that had a pin hole near a brazed joint. Took the old heat exchanger to a scrap yard, and got $33.60 for it. It weighed 12 pounds and got $2.80 a pound for it.
        Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
        A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
        Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
        Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

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        • Re: Navien tankless heaters

          What a piece of... Have had this tank for a couple years and it has just crapped out. After it was installed, it made too much noise and took a long time for the water to come to the taps even with the re-circulation. I will let you know how it goes with the plumber and hopefully the issues resolve and my family can take hot or at least warm showers. Note to self, research further when making decent sized purchases.

          Thanks for many of the posts on this forum. Too bad I didn't read it before buying this piece of...

          Navien Model CR-240A NG
          Last edited by Unhappy with Tankless; 10-23-2012, 10:23 PM.

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          • Re: Navien tankless heaters

            sorry for you problems. just about every customers ask me what i think about tankless and all but 4 have gone with tanks. there is a market for tankless, but it's not with me or most other pros on the forum.

            back when i was doing large scale new construction. almost every building had a tankless instantaneous heater, most without a storage tank. but these are more like a pool heater than a modern small scale tankless we see in the current market. larrs and raypacks were my choice of heaters. did dozens and dozens of them.

            rick.
            phoebe it is

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            • Re: Navien tankless heaters

              Hello All,

              I am in the middle of a decision. I am totally redoing my home and have 5 baths. I will need 2 units and I am strongly considering the Noritz NCC-199-SV-NG or the Navien NR-240A. Each of these units have what I feel are comparable statistics. The Norits is a bit more expensive and the Navien has a built in buffer tank and recirc plus a bit higher efficiency... The statistics and operating theory make me lean toward the Navien... However from what I am reading the Noritz appears to be the way to go as it seems the Navien is really plagued with issues... Or am i misunderstanding something. Buying two of these units will be a large purchase for me an I want to make sure I will be making the right decision and I hope the pros here can help me.

              Thank you,

              Mike

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              • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                Put in a tank.

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                • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                  Is there any advantage to putting in the tank... Always have hated keeping all that water warm.. most of the time a lot of hot water is not going to be needed... Just me and my wife... You dont like the idea of tankless at all?



                  Originally posted by BobsPlumbing View Post
                  Put in a tank.

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                  • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                    The idea of tankless is great however...

                    If you read the entire thread you will find that most of the professionals on here have had bad experiences with many kinds of tankless heaters. Navien had many many problems when they first came out. So did others, though probably not as advertised as much as the Navien. With any unit installation is always in question, as an incorrect or poor install will always give problems, no matter the brand. Many an early unit designed in a lab condition was not thoroughly tested in real world conditions which resulted in p1ssed off customers. Marketing of brands also glossed over the pitfalls of tankless and there was a lack of parts, training, and support. Fortunately most of the problems have been ironed out by these manufacturers

                    BUT

                    the bad taste has been left and most pros won't try tankless again. So, they push the tanks.

                    Advantages of the tank? Having hot water as long as there is pressure to push it, up to the capacity or heating rate of the unit. Insulation qualities of the jacket are pretty decent and result in a 1-2 degree loss daily. ( Adding an external insulation jacket will probably void the warranty. Don't do it.) Lower cost of replacement.

                    Disadvantages of the tank? Lower efficiency. More frequent replacement.
                    ~~

                    ... it was plumbed by Ray Charles and his helper Stevie Wonder

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                    • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                      I have put in many types of tankless water heaters and boilers. I have had problems arise with Rheem, Navien, Baxi, Munchkin and Paloma. Often times the problems are the result of improper installation, however, I've had brand new units that went down after only a few months. On Monday I've been called to investigate a 10 month old navien that shuts down intermittently. I personally own a Rinnai and have installed hundreds with extremely minimal problems. The only call backs we get with these units are after several years of use. The heat exchangers scale up and you have to flush them. I did have one rinnai unit this year that went down due to about 100 moths getting sucked into the combustion air. I would buy a Rinnai if you are considering tankless. They have been in Europe for years and they have the technology down.

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                      • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                        Hello, visit my website at Plumbing by Jay, INC. and watch me work on a Takagi Tankless water heater. They are about the same as working on a NaIve Navien. Eternal was, in my opinion, the best. I no longer recommend any Tankless or tankless hybrid. I had been installing them for over 15 years. I give up. I just spent all day working on eternal unit that was 3 months old. It turns out that the heater exchanger failed. They blamed my Venting, even though, they approved it at the time of install. ALL TANKLESS COMPANIES SUCK. THEY WILL TRY TO FIGURE OUT A WAY OUT OF THEIR WARRANTY, OR TELL YOU TO MAKE UPGRADES TO THE CURRENT INSTALL, IT WILL DRIVE YOU BONKERS. DON DO IT.
                        "don't put that in your mouth, you don't know where it's been"

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                        • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                          Well I went with the Noritz NCC199-SV NG Condensing Tankless... Hope I have made a solid decision here... Seems like the navien with buffer tank has more issues. any recommendations/requirements I should make the plumber follow to on ensure the warranty will be in tack and two get the best performance from the units. All of my gas is getting redone and designed for 1 million BTU's. The heaters will be supplied by a 1 line off of a 2" trunk so there should be plenty of fuel for the heaters.

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                          • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                            The best way to get the warranty covered on a tankless is to NOT INSTALL TANKLESS. The problem is not how it is installed today, but what the way they will want it to be in a few years when you need the warranty. We run into this all of the time. When you run into a problem, they will ask you numerous questions. Water hardness, gas meter size, gas piping size, Manometer readings, Vent distances, vent 45's or 90's, type of vent, condensate size, condensate type, ETC. Then they will tell you, Well, you should have done XYZ. They will usually end up sending parts after a few hours of begging, but then you will need to upgrade unit to the latest install, and send pictures or the WARRANTY will be VOIDED. I just had a call on a Navien. The part that is broken is #42 (Exhaust Duct) Navien sent the part to the customer for Free! (whooppeee freakin do) It takes 8 hours to install. Everything must come out. I told him to call the local (know it all rep), and have him change it out for him. He seems to like to undermine us Plumbers, and lie to the customer about how much things cost. Noritz, Navien, Eternal, Rinnai. They are all the same. Glorified expensive Boat anchors. Trust me, I know what I am talking about. I have Worked on All the Main Brands.
                            "don't put that in your mouth, you don't know where it's been"

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                            • Re: Navien Tankless Heaters

                              The issue of using Tankless Domestic Water Heater for space heating (radiant) still goes around. With the available and very affordable condensing modulating boilers specifically designed and warrantied for space heating (radiant), why bother trying to use the wrong device for a purpose as important as space heating. Calculate the volume of fluid heated and the number of cycles initiated in a year compared to the intended use and that should be all that needs to be done to change minds. Now add in the density of 30% glycol moving through the device wisely used in some areas and the other challenges and that should finish the discussion. Move onto a Condensing and Modulating Boiler..... maybe even a Combi..... and do the job right for you or your customers. I live it, not just sell it. Something to be said for that.

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                              • Re: Navien Tankless Heaters

                                We have a building that has a spot inside that the floor is heated and also the entry way to the building . We have a tankless heater with a storage tank with two block heat exchangers . The system work very good but i wish they would have better control's on the outside slab. I would like to see a Moisture sensor so the system knows when it should com on rather then run all the time.
                                But when they did i it was all about cost then and not the long term cost.
                                Charlie

                                My seek the peek fundraiser page
                                http://observatory.mountwashington.o...nal&fr_id=1040


                                http://www.mountwashington.org/weather/conditions.php

                                new work pictures 12/09
                                http://public.fotki.com/hvachawk/

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