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  • Re: Navien tankless heaters

    Originally posted by Lee H View Post
    Excellent
    may I sell you a combustion analyzer? Get ready for the future!

    I have it. Heck I even have Oscilloscopes spectrum analyzers, and many other tools that are not required for plumbing. I could and I have troubleshooted Tankless water heaters right down to the defective component on the circuit boards. Before I became a plumber I was a component level troubleshooter of electronics in the Army.

    I see the future and Tankless especially Navien tankless does not have a very bright one.
    Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
    A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
    Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
    Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

    Comment


    • Re: Navien tankless heaters

      Originally posted by Lee H View Post
      Don't take it personal, I don't know you. But it is a fact I've seen 2 person to 20 man shops that can't check inlet gas pressure or set manifold pressure on a furnace.
      I do not take it personal at all.

      Just as you shouldn't take it personal that I've seen Kohler, Rinnai, Moen, Grohe, Takagi etc. etc. etc. reps that cannot install the product they represent in a professional and timely manner at all. (Time DOES count. )

      See, everyone has something to learn.

      J.C.

      Comment


      • Re: Navien tankless heaters

        I'm a plumber that is willing to learn as much as I can about all products. New, old, current.

        Lee, be honest. Are you involved with the Navien company in any way?

        A wholesaler?

        What can you teach me & others about Navien that maybe we don't know?

        Why would I consider it as a product when some educated professionals have seen some quality issues that they have not had when installing a comparable product in the same situation? Have the issues been worked out?

        Any recalls?

        Just learning all I can...

        J.C.

        Comment


        • Re: Navien tankless heaters

          I've been a reader of this forum for quite some time and like a lesson I once learned from another forum once, the same dozen people like to control the boards and bicker back and forth. Yes I'm new to posting and if you don't want me let me know I can leave but doesn't it get a bit boring with the same people?

          Comment


          • Re: Navien tankless heaters

            Originally posted by Lee H View Post
            I've been a reader of this forum for quite some time and like a lesson I once learned from another forum once, the same dozen people like to control the boards and bicker back and forth. Yes I'm new to posting and if you don't want me let me know I can leave but doesn't it get a bit boring with the same people?
            Welcome here as far as I'm concerned so far.

            People will agree & disagree all the time.

            Finding the middle ground and respecting the other persons opinion while completely disagreeing with their conclusion is the hard part.

            I'm still studying ALL tankless products almost weekly.

            J.C.

            Comment


            • Re: Navien tankless heaters

              Originally posted by Lee H View Post
              I've been a reader of this forum for quite some time and like a lesson I once learned from another forum once, the same dozen people like to control the boards and bicker back and forth. Yes I'm new to posting and if you don't want me let me know I can leave but doesn't it get a bit boring with the same people?

              Well Mr. Lee instead of taking pot shots at the posters on the forums why not educate us on the product. JCsPlumbing asked some great questions. Maybe you feel like a forum is controlled by certain posters because of the way you come off with the few posts you have made.
              Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
              A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
              Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
              Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

              Comment


              • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                I study them as often as I can. I take the manufactures course at least once a month. It might be the same info I learned the month before, but i always have new questions for the person giving the class. And there are times where they will teach us something new they just came up with.

                I even do the same with my continued education classes. We are required to have 4 Credit Hours to renew our plumbing license, I normally have any where from 12 to 21 credit hours due to taking more than one class when I can.

                Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                Welcome here as far as I'm concerned so far.

                People will agree & disagree all the time.

                Finding the middle ground and respecting the other persons opinion while completely disagreeing with their conclusion is the hard part.

                I'm still studying ALL tankless products almost weekly.

                J.C.
                Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
                A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
                Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
                Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

                Comment


                • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                  Originally posted by SewerRatz View Post
                  I study them as often as I can. I take the manufactures course at least once a month. It might be the same info I learned the month before, but i always have new questions for the person giving the class. And there are times where they will teach us something new they just came up with.

                  I even do the same with my continued education classes. We are required to have 4 Credit Hours to renew our plumbing license, I normally have any where from 12 to 21 credit hours due to taking more than one class when I can.
                  I took 6 today.

                  (Should we stop thanking one another? )

                  J.C.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                    I don't believe I've taken any potshots but I certainly have replied being on the defensive.
                    Last edited by Lee H; 12-01-2012, 10:27 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                      Originally posted by Lee H View Post
                      I don't believe I've taken any potshots but I certainly have replied being on the defensive.

                      We have 6 boiler lines, 2 Tankless lines & Trane. I'm a principal so yes I must be careful. Over the years I have had the opportunity to develop many relationships so back to the earlier challenge, you will be hard pressed to find an official response posting on walls from Rinnai, Noritz, Takagi, Trane, Triangle Tube, Buderus, Lochinvar and so on. Their corporate policy does not allow an official on-line response.

                      Regarding the Navien units, it was trying at first but the last 8 months has been almost trouble free and the new models they started shipping last month have been great (fingers crossed) .

                      The biggest problem with Navien is assuming they are a standard Tankless. They are not, mainly because they have a premix burner. This is sensitive to low and fluctuating gas pressures. While Rinnai used to bad mouth this style of burner, quess what their condensing unit has one too. These are not new as condensing boilers have been using them for some time. The problem is with insufficient pressures it may need adjustment with a dual port manometer that most plumbers would not have. Of course the biggest attraction to the Navien was the PVC venting that attracted even more installers and in some areas DIYers that thought they could install only to not have the knowledge, skills or proper tools.
                      Thanks. Good information. Do you happen to know the model numbers of the "new" series that have any of the previous issues stabilized?

                      J.C.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                        Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                        Thanks. Good information. Do you happen to know the model numbers of the "new" series that have any of the previous issues stabilized?

                        J.C.
                        NR's replaced the CR's
                        NP's replaced the CC's

                        The internal piping changed some to stabilize temps. What most people fail to understand, if you want 98% efficiency and PVC venting something has to give and one is temp fluctuations.

                        Rinnai for instance on their 84% claim +or-5 degrees, that's 10 total folks. For almost 15% more effic the Navien is 15 or so.

                        In most cases, anything more than that with a Navien can usually be traced back to low or fluctuating gas pressures because of piping, meters, regulators, and other appliances.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                          Originally posted by Lee H View Post
                          NR's replaced the CR's
                          NP's replaced the CC's

                          The internal piping changed some to stabilize temps. What most people fail to understand, if you want 98% efficiency and PVC venting something has to give and one is temp fluctuations.

                          Rinnai for instance on their 84% claim +or-5 degrees, that's 10 total folks. For almost 15% more effic the Navien is 15 or so.

                          In most cases, anything more than that with a Navien can usually be traced back to low or fluctuating gas pressures because of piping, meters, regulators, and other appliances.
                          Now this might go over my brain but I'll ask anyway:

                          Do the laws of physics prevent any tankless company from closing temperature fluctuations to say...5 degrees...while achieving 95% or better efficiency? Or is this an area they will try to improve and be able to reach soon?

                          Opinions & facts from all are good.

                          Thanks.

                          J.C.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                            Originally posted by Lee H View Post
                            I don't believe I've taken any potshots but I certainly have replied being on the defensive.

                            We have 6 boiler lines, 2 Tankless lines & Trane. I'm a principal so yes I must be careful. Over the years I have had the opportunity to develop many relationships so back to the earlier challenge, you will be hard pressed to find an official response posting on walls from Rinnai, Noritz, Takagi, Trane, Triangle Tube, Buderus, Lochinvar and so on. Their corporate policy does not allow an official on-line response.

                            Regarding the Navien units, it was trying at first but the last 8 months has been almost trouble free and the new models they started shipping last month have been great (fingers crossed) .

                            The biggest problem with Navien is assuming they are a standard Tankless. They are not, mainly because they have a premix burner. This is sensitive to low and fluctuating gas pressures. While Rinnai used to bad mouth this style of burner, quess what their condensing unit has one too. These are not new as condensing boilers have been using them for some time. The problem is with insufficient pressures it may need adjustment with a dual port manometer that most plumbers would not have. Of course the biggest attraction to the Navien was the PVC venting that attracted even more installers and in some areas DIYers that thought they could install only to not have the knowledge, skills or proper tools.
                            See that was not so tuff, you contributed to the discussion without sounding like a total Navien Fanboy

                            So after all of this you concede the point that Navien Tankless heaters have at least in the past been a PITA...
                            "Regarding the Navien units, it was trying at first but the last 8 months has been almost trouble free and the new models they started shipping last month have been great (fingers crossed)"

                            The "at first" you are refering to was almost 2 years for me.... Fingers crossed is right.

                            Good to see you have no reason to be biased in any way being a "Principal" and all

                            Comment


                            • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                              Mr Lee, what about the pressure loss of a Navien verses a Noritz Noritz has a 30 PSI loss at a 11 GPM flow, where Navien has a 30 PSI loss at a 3 GPM flow, also Noritz unit has a temperature fluctuation of 3º F +/- and Navien has a 10º F +/- fluctuation. Also Navien claims to have a stainless steel secondary heat exchanger but only part of it is stainless steel where the Noritz is 100 % stainless steel.

                              These are some issues I hope they addressed as well as some of the others in their what now 4th generation of tankless water heaters?
                              Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
                              A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
                              Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
                              Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

                              Comment


                              • Re: Navien tankless heaters

                                Not my field either but I doubt it not without increasing unit size immensly or reducing efficiency significantly. It's a matter of the mixing valves and high intensity burners reacting together and quick enough.

                                Although I have been very sucessfull adding thermostatic mix valves on the outlet to control spikes which is 1/2 of the swings. Of course your adding additional pressure drop at certain flow rates that a Tankless has already versus minimal a tank does with the tube additional piping, valves, fittings.

                                Comment

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