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  • #16
    Re: need help

    Would there not be volume in the bladder tank also? Pressurized volume?

    J.C.

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    • #17
      Re: need help

      not enough----maybe im wrong though---i was thinking of 50-75 gallon storage tank----the issue with bladder is once initial burst is depleted, sysem has to be closed to build up more, so problem would still exist, just take longer to happen

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      • #18
        Re: need help

        Gotcha'. Be interesting to know for sure. I was thinking of a 75gal+- bladder tank.

        Otherwise, looks like you need to know
        1)incoming volume
        2)pressure
        3)turnover rate of fixtures
        4)pump specs-to get your tank size.

        I think I'd go crosseyed and have to call engineers or manufacturers. With those 4 things grundfos could probably help. Please post how you solve this as I need to know also.

        Thanks.

        J.C.
        Last edited by BobsPlumbing; 09-11-2008, 09:38 PM. Reason: Clarity

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        • #19
          Re: need help

          A large bladder tank (86 gal) provides about a 20 gallon draw down on a typical 30/50 pressure switch setup. This would allow for enough volume to flush toilets, urinals, etc if it were piped in with 1" straight from the tank, regardless of what size line was feeding the tank. When the system was not in use it would be recharging the tank. I do not think you will need any type of booster pump. You will not have a continuous high flow situation, but enough to take care of peak usages.
          Last edited by Devine Plumbing; 09-11-2008, 10:24 PM.
          Distractions are everywhere, don't lose sight of your dream.

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          • #20
            Re: need help

            I can't believe they can afford all these multi-thousand-dollar remodels but can't afford to put in a decent-sized water supply. Is it impossible to get a bigger meter or bury a new line underground? In the long run, wouldn't that be a heck of a lot cheaper and less maintenance than a pump and/or storage tank?

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            • #21
              Re: need help

              flushometer valves require a minimum of 15# to operate properly.

              you have a situation that was bad from the get go and now you need a way to fix a screw up.

              a bladder is not the answer. you need not only a pump, but proper size piping to feed the fixture demand.

              sure a storage tank and pump will boost pressure, but the undersized piping to the fixtures is still an issue. i take it the toilets are tank and the urinals are flushometers?

              who's going to pay for the over engineering or the under engineering? have you consulted a mechanical engineer?

              no real simple answer as doing it right is not an option

              rick.
              phoebe it is

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              • #22
                Re: need help

                Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                flushometer valves require a minimum of 15# to operate properly.

                you have a situation that was bad from the get go and now you need a way to fix a screw up.

                a bladder is not the answer. you need not only a pump, but proper size piping to feed the fixture demand.

                sure a storage tank and pump will boost pressure, but the undersized piping to the fixtures is still an issue. i take it the toilets are tank and the urinals are flushometers?

                who's going to pay for the over engineering or the under engineering? have you consulted a mechanical engineer?

                no real simple answer as doing it right is not an option

                rick.
                Would not an inline tank work if it was plumbed and sized properly after the tank connection to the fixtures, and the tank was placed as close to the fixtures as possible?
                Distractions are everywhere, don't lose sight of your dream.

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                • #23
                  Re: need help

                  It is tough with out seeing for layout etc. but I would recommend a Goulds Aquaboost variable speed pump. The tanks is only like a 1 gallon bladder tank that mounts on the pump, it just acts as a cushion, the pump will adjust its speed to maintain whatever pressure you set it at say 60psi. One thing we have to check is flow too many GPM means high water velocity in pipe and too much velocity means erosion. You want to be at less than 7 FT/SEC. If you can work out some kind or riser diagram with pipe sizes ficture count etc. I could probable help more. Or you can just go to a pump supplier, not just a plumbing supplier. If you give him incoming pressure, riser diagram, (approximate) with pipe sizes he should be able to get you something that will give you 20 PSI (minimum allowed here) to the furthest fixture. No promises though that the existing pipes wont have to be replaced






                  http://www.goulds.com/pdf/BRGLCAPA.pdf

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                  • #24
                    Re: need help

                    Best advice- Have the customer hire and pay for the services of licensed engineer who will study the problem, take measurements and then prescribe a solution complete with specifications and plans, with his seal on them.
                    Then you can bid on the project... (now here comes the most important part)... and you are not liable if the results are not what was anticipated. When the engineer designs it and seals it is his solution, you are only the installer.Check with your lawyer.

                    Presently all of the answers that you have received are educated guesses for what sounds like a problem that has developed over a lot of years. Now, i'm guessing here, the owner wants results but can't or won't spend the dollars to correct the problem properly. Someone mentioned that you need a 2" water main. That sounds like the start of the solution. If you do not have enough volume you can not create it using pressure.

                    Some problems can't be solved because the circumstances ( financial, physical, or legal) won't allow you to solve them. Sounds like all three are barriers here. Quit wasteing your time and refer them to a local consulting engineer. And, yes, they will charge him for their design services. Right now I doubt that you are being paid for your efforts.

                    Been there done that.

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                    • #25
                      Re: need help

                      Well what did you do plumberjr?

                      J.C.

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                      • #26
                        Re: need help

                        Am I the only one that thinks this problem sounds like something to walk away from? Obviously the owner does not have the money or inclination to fix this problem properly. I would run the other way.

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