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  • #61
    Re: Plumbing Union numbers

    guy's don't we have a sectional/ drum debate to discuss

    i've already spoken to a few of the guys here.

    aaron is still very excited about being in the union and going back to school. so was i back then

    i think a lot has to do with the fact that some of the oldtimers from the union are putting words in his mouth.

    i really doubt that aaron means any harm to any of us.

    remember it was us on the forum that got arron back to school and suggested for him to join the union for the education and work experience.

    aaron is a go getter and he's on a plumbing hi

    lets see if this can fade away and get back to plumbing

    believe it or not, i broke out the k-7500 today for 4 hours

    i really did

    rick.
    phoebe it is

    Comment


    • #62
      Re: Plumbing Union numbers

      believe it or not, i broke out the k-7500 today for 4 hours

      i really did

      rick.[/quote]

      Ok i'm done!!!

      Lets talk about this 4 hours behind a drum machine. Why not start a new thread to tell us all about it?
      www.firstresponsedrain.com

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: Plumbing Union numbers

        One of the best life's decisions in my life was leaving the union, never to return.



        I'm a leader, never a follower.


        Everyone making the same pay scale for years, watching the brown-nosers and the think tanks educate themselves to the gills for the promise of job security was a gradual slope that involved opinions and reputations, groupings of those were liked and disliked for just the way they looked, and from there they found out how hard that work week really is.


        You are OWNED by that mindset that you miss work, someone owns your job if you have a bad day or days, maybe your health takes a **** and now you're not dependable.


        There's a lot of things I want to accomplish in life and being union was going to limit all of my goals.


        Back to my above statement:


        I'm a leader, not a follower.
        Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: Plumbing Union numbers

          Originally posted by DUNBAR View Post
          One of the best life's decisions in my life was leaving the union, never to return.



          I'm a leader, never a follower.


          Everyone making the same pay scale for years, watching the brown-nosers and the think tanks educate themselves to the gills for the promise of job security was a gradual slope that involved opinions and reputations, groupings of those were liked and disliked for just the way they looked, and from there they found out how hard that work week really is.


          You are OWNED by that mindset that you miss work, someone owns your job if you have a bad day or days, maybe your health takes a **** and now you're not dependable.


          There's a lot of things I want to accomplish in life and being union was going to limit all of my goals.


          Back to my above statement:


          I'm a leader, not a follower.
          Sounds like you were in the Communist party.

          I am fortunate the Union trained me, and I started my own business. Did they train you?

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: Plumbing Union numbers

            Originally posted by NorthernIllinoisPlumber View Post
            Sounds like you were in the Communist party.

            I am fortunate the Union trained me, and I started my own business. Did they train you?


            Absolutely.



            I'm pretty sure from another site that you're a union shop, just you and your dad, and I'll get back to that at the end of this statement.



            The company I worked for, the second company I worked for just went union as well. There's 3 fellows in this world thanks to this union employer that have serious back problems but I'm the only one still working. The other two opted for surgeries and never recovered.

            However, this guy was sued and now has to provide two servicemen to a drain call involving a drain cleaning machine down a set of steps, it's mandatory.


            Here's where the union knew where my intent was going:


            I contacted OSHA in regards to this exact situation of having an employee lift 250+ pounds on a regular basis. OSHA started backstepping after I mentioned the words "union" and suggested that the only way I had a case would be to have footage of the violation in progress. Mind you, the key word here is "violation" meaning it was against proper work procedures to subject a worker to this type of aggressive work detail without providing the employee some or ANY type of back protection.

            Getting sued years later long after I was gone fixed his work ethics, 3 guys shortened/lost their plumbing careers as a result. Just saying "No" in the union gets you a quick ride to the bench with no chance of ever working.


            OSHA contacted the union, the union knew I was up to something. Just the line of questions I was asking at the hall was marking me as big trouble in little china given the fact that I was on the outside looking in, even though I was part of that clan.


            I gave them options of where I was going with this, had nothing to lose and everything to gain and I had no intentions of getting a lawyer because I'll fight my own battles for myself...my case was that good.


            Here's what I managed:


            18 months of unemployment

            8 months of medical disability

            13 weeks of additional unemployment

            Drew out sub-pay completely

            Insurance was covered for that last year



            The above paid off a work truck and stocked it to the gills with inventory. It was somewhere around $29 thousand when it was all over with. I still had to borrow $40 grand to get myself positioned to run as a legit plumber paying the dues like any other business. Dues were not union dues however.


            Back to your union shop,


            I'm friends with a once father-son sprinkler fitter company that does service only. Great company until the father retired like he was supposed to, the son was doing tremendous till he had some sort of problem where something inside his body is poisioning him and they can't find out why.

            He had an injury where they put titanium in his wrist and his problems have grown from there, even though he didn't want to hear that statement.


            He doesn't have his dad anymore to help him as the union has told the both of them that if they catch the dad moonlighting, or "double-dipping" while he's drawing a pension, they'll yank both and expel them out of the union.


            This guy's health problems has him still running his business keeping his two guys employed but he's not making money. IOW it's not providing anything to him as a benefit of having the company.


            The union he belongs to in a surprise attack told him that they are going to push him out of the union, said they have him on video tape working. I know for a fact that this isn't true because when you spend 3 months in a hospital puking your insides out, you don't have time to be 3 tiers in a ceiling working on pipeline repairs. The guy is so physically weak he can't hold a pipewrench in his hands, he's lost 40% of his body weight and he looks horrible.

            The reason for my description of this situation is to let you know that IF you become unable to keep those union dues coming into that big business format, you are going to get clipped, just like I did and so many others.

            If you're doing it for honor, insurance bennies, status in the community, job security in the hands of others wanting those big jobs, good for you.


            The union taught me that I shouldn't be so heavily reliable for bringing myself security through another affiliation who's primary goal is using the system the way it was designed; fraction the equation of workers pay to the large scale of revenue it provides, pay above normal non-union shops to advocate the better carrot on the string.


            It works, it gives some plumbers that don't know what it's like on the inside that goal they're searching for. Once you're in, it's hard to see the forest from the trees. An injury opened my eyes to how much greener the grass really is outside those 4 walls.


            That union shop that injured 3 backs...


            Went flat rate after I left because the union dues/fees were staggering and in the turnaround the guy lost some of his best men that were there for years.

            Charging $87 to replace one or two parts in a toilet up to $189 to replace everything involved with that toilet, even though there was only one or two problems, infuriated long time customers.

            His transition has cost this guy heavily in reputation, and his format of doing business is totally changed. The union has had a heavy hand in this move. He now practices two men for any drain cleaning call involving the large machine.



            And to top it all off?


            My dad, a retired union drywall foreman.

            He's actually part of the local carpenter's union. They made him sign his life away that he cannot drive a nail into wood or hang a sheet of drywall for income.

            He can't even run a business involving anything tied to what he did in the union. Can't do consultations, supervisor positions, estimations, nothing.

            They own his *** completely, even though he loves his profession. That's control I'll never be a part of.

            He just lost $400 of his monthly pension this year, no reason why from the union either. They just do those things and you have no control. They also raised his insurance last year $204.

            These numbers might seem insignificant to you and I, but he's on a fixed income and the union doesn't care one bit, especially when they've tossed one of the best prescription plans ever out there.

            Why? Because they don't make money offering "good" to their backbone of workers.
            Last edited by DUNBAR PLUMBING; 09-18-2008, 11:01 AM.
            Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

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            • #66
              Re: Plumbing Union numbers

              Originally posted by DUNBAR View Post
              My dad, a retired union drywall foreman.

              He's actually part of the local carpenter's union. They made him sign his life away that he cannot drive a nail into wood or hang a sheet of drywall for income.

              He can't even run a business involving anything tied to what he did in the union. Can't do consultations, supervisor positions, estimations, nothing.

              They own his *** completely, even though he loves his profession. That's control I'll never be a part of.

              He just lost $400 of his monthly pension this year, no reason why from the union either. They just do those things and you have no control. They also raised his insurance last year $204.

              These numbers might seem insignificant to you and I, but he's on a fixed income and the union doesn't care one bit, especially when they've tossed one of the best prescription plans ever out there.

              Why? Because they don't make money offering "good" to their backbone of workers.
              So if you're union, you have to sign a non compete clause that lasts your entire life? Is this what you're telling me?
              Buy cheap, buy twice.

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: Plumbing Union numbers

                Originally posted by gear junkie View Post
                So if you're union, you have to sign a non compete clause that lasts your entire life? Is this what you're telling me?
                I believe it is because he is retired. With our Union you lost a year of retirement for every year you worked non union. When my old shop finally went non union it forced all of the old guys to to retire early to save their retirement and all of the young guys to leave the union to save their jobs.

                Mark
                "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: Plumbing Union numbers

                  You have me mixed up with another fella.

                  And it sounds like you got a raw deal with the employers. I will never understand why people abuse their bodies in a way due to an employer. I have stood my ground several times regarding water heaters, rodding and the like, and was never reprimanded. I know my limits, and that is that. No one can make you do anything.

                  Sounds like you really scored aginst your employer, good for you, I guess. You sued to get him to change his work ethics, and received that?

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: Plumbing Union numbers

                    I've always felt a Union is to a Tradesman as a Agent is to an Entertainer. Like the Agent promotes the well being of the Entertainer the Union promotes the well being of the Tradesman. For this service both the Agent and the Union take a percentage of all earnings for their troubles. For some it works out and for others it does not. For me I found I was better in promoting myself than the Union was.

                    Mark
                    "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                    I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: Plumbing Union numbers

                      Granted the union isnt for everyone, but it is for some. I do agree also that there are alot of scumbags that want to drink coffee all day. There is nothing wrong with trying to get yourself to a point where you want to be a foreman or even run work. Just cause I am in the union doesnt mean I am not a leader , cause I defintely am one. I hope someday to be running a multi-million dollar job. I am sure everyone would love to be in business for them selves but it aint that easy to just start one up as all of you that are in know already. One last note on the person that said about Arron that he wasnt getting paid cause he didnt know much, at least in my area which is one of the busiest in the country----you are not getting paid more than $28 an hour in the non-union sector, just isnt happening unless you own it.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: Plumbing Union numbers

                        Originally posted by NorthernIllinoisPlumber View Post
                        You have me mixed up with another fella.

                        And it sounds like you got a raw deal with the employers. I will never understand why people abuse their bodies in a way due to an employer. I have stood my ground several times regarding water heaters, rodding and the like, and was never reprimanded. I know my limits, and that is that. No one can make you do anything.

                        Sounds like you really scored aginst your employer, good for you, I guess. You sued to get him to change his work ethics, and received that?


                        That's correct, no one can make you do anything but you're constantly under scrutiny in the union. They know of the instant access to pull from the bench if you have a bad day or week.

                        Of course, you get some time in on the job with the employer and you might have some pull.


                        My dad being a union carpenter/drywall foreman had like 193 employers over his career....?

                        They'd move him back and forth, he was good at his job but like anyone else he was expendable.



                        I didn't sue anyone, I just made sure that they knew under the covers that I was coming to get my money.


                        The employer learned his lesson long after I was gone, I was told from a former employee that he destroyed two other plumber's backs since I was there. I was just lucky and got out in a knick of time. Could of been so much worse.
                        Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: Plumbing Union numbers

                          Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                          I've always felt a Union is to a Tradesman as a Agent is to an Entertainer. Like the Agent promotes the well being of the Entertainer the Union promotes the well being of the Tradesman. For this service both the Agent and the Union take a percentage of all earnings for their troubles. For some it works out and for others it does not. For me I found I was better in promoting myself than the Union was.

                          Mark


                          That's why they discourage anyone becoming anything more than a journeyman plumber.


                          A broad, broad category that fits everyone into the mold.


                          Originally posted by stecar View Post
                          Granted the union isnt for everyone, but it is for some. I do agree also that there are alot of scumbags that want to drink coffee all day. There is nothing wrong with trying to get yourself to a point where you want to be a foreman or even run work. Just cause I am in the union doesnt mean I am not a leader , cause I defintely am one. I hope someday to be running a multi-million dollar job. I am sure everyone would love to be in business for them selves but it aint that easy to just start one up as all of you that are in know already. One last note on the person that said about Arron that he wasnt getting paid cause he didnt know much, at least in my area which is one of the busiest in the country----you are not getting paid more than $28 an hour in the non-union sector, just isnt happening unless you own it.

                          And there's nothing wrong with that motivation, other than you'll score maybe $2-3 dollars tops over journeyman's scale, and you'll age like you own your own business, just won't get the full reward for the accomplishment.



                          So if you do the math:




                          Let's say a 3 year job at $3 over scale, times 6000 hours equals $18,000.00 before taxes, before the union takes their slash.


                          Now think about the long hours, the dedication, the having your *** on the line if anything goes wrong, the attitudes and the possibility of going behind schedule.


                          We might be talking roughly $3-4 grand a year for your intended efforts.


                          Do you realize how much money the union makes off of you in these situations? Too much and they won't discuss it with you either. That's what I have a problem with,


                          building earnings for someone other than me. The risk of failure is much greater, but I'd rather lose a fortune than make a fortune for someone else.

                          One life and I'm going to live it like there's no boundaries in my profession. The union is dedicated to holding back the inspirational thinkers.
                          Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

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