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  • Effects of a softener on a tankless

    This topic started in a thread on ask the experts but thought this was the better placed for it.

    I would like EVERYONE'S opions, thought's, questions, concerns, and answers on this topic. Thank you
    -Michael

  • #2
    Re: Effects of a softener on a tankless

    Originally Posted by nomoreleak [IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Rene/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msoclip1/02/clip_image001.gif[/IMG]
    Best maintance for a tankless is maintaining water before it hits the heater. I always recommend a softner and a whole house filter(http://www.filtersfast.com/ProdImages/ob1.jpg) just before the heater.

    I would take this advice with a grain of salt[IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Rene/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msoclip1/02/clip_image002.gif[/IMG] I have seen salt softners eat through the best Bradford White Water Heaters in less than a year.


    IF this is something you may be interested have your water evaluated by an independant testing company (not the guy selling the softening / filter equipment.)

    Just a few thoughts...

    Okie
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by OkieBill [IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Rene/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msoclip1/02/clip_image001.gif[/IMG]
    I would take this advice with a grain of salt[IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Rene/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msoclip1/02/clip_image002.gif[/IMG] I have seen salt softners eat through the best Bradford White Water Heaters in less than a year.


    IF this is something you may be interested have your water evaluated by an independant testing company (not the guy selling the softening / filter equipment.)

    Just a few thoughts...

    Okie

    Originally Posted by nomoreleak [IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Rene/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msoclip1/02/clip_image001.gif[/IMG]
    Softeners as I understand it Kill tank water heaters because they eat the anode rod then move on to the tank. But with a tankless there is no anode and the heater exchangers are more often than not copper which a softener will leave a coating on making it harder for deposits to stick to. This is all just what I have gather in my short 3.5 years in the field so I most definitely ma have been mislead. I do know some tankless companies won't honor the warranty unless there is some form of water treatment to the unit. please correct me if I am wrong[IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Rene/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msoclip1/02/clip_image004.gif[/IMG]

    Which tankless companies are you speaking of? Please elaborate...[IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Rene/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msoclip1/02/clip_image002.gif[/IMG] ( I think I know where you are going with this but this may not have been the way to phrase it)

    What is eating the anode in the traditional water heater so quickly I wonder? The anode is what is refered to as a "sacrificial anode" it's job is to corrode so the exchanger will not, but both fail at an alarming rate in the presence of an improperly installed / maintained salt softner.

    I have never heard of a softner placing a protective coating on copper pipes please elaborate on this also:-)

    A tankless heater heats the water very quickly through very small passages in it's heat exchanger... The heating of the water causes the minerals to fall out of suspension and deposit themselves on the exchanger water side surfaces. Do we really think Joe homeowner is going to do the required descaling on his tankless? but I digress...

    Of course a well designed and managed water treatment system will be better for all of a plumbing systems components, But..... It has been my experience that a homeowner will buy a softner or one will be already installed in a recently purchased home and all a homeowner will do is just keep adding salt. Maintenance and water testing do not happen.

    At this point a few things happen...

    Over softened water is just as damaging as the unsoftened water you are trying to treat which will lead to membrane failure which will release the softners resin beads into your water system where they will form a Gel clogging everything to include the flow impeller that turns on your tankless heater...

    So before I saycatch-all "get a softner" I would say have your water evaluated by an independant company to determine if you even need a softner and be prepaired to take care of it or you will cause even more problems down the road.

    A simple sediment filter is a good idea in a tankless installation IMO.

    I base the above on my experiences with improperly installed and maintained salt softners and tankless water heaters[IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Rene/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msoclip1/02/clip_image002.gif[/IMG]



    Okie
    The Company of which I am speaking is Takagi and they do not recommend flushing there units.

    As for a protective coating like I said I may be wrong but Monday I intend to call several tankless reps to get to the bottom of this. Another theory would be that a tank as a giant sediment trap. But a tankless's narrow piped heat exchanger keeps any sediment from setting down and attaching because of constant flow.

    I was also under the impression that softeners will extend the life of your copper pipe why would the same not be true for a copper heat exchanger.

    Where I am EVERYONE has very hard water

    Another question what is the difference between Potassium Salt and regular salt?

    should we start a softener effects tankless thread?

    [IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Rene/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msoclip1/02/clip_image005.jpg[/IMG]
    PLUMBER RICK[IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Rene/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msoclip1/02/clip_image006.gif[/IMG][IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Rene/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msoclip1/02/clip_image007.gif[/IMG] [IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Rene/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msoclip1/02/clip_image008.gif[/IMG]

    Senior Member

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    [IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Rene/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msoclip1/02/clip_image011.gif[/IMG]Re: My tankless experience summary

    i have a customer in beverly hills with a tankless that is less than 1 year old.

    today was the second time i've had to go there to flush out minerals/ sediment that has plugged a flex line suppling hot water to a guest lav widespread faucet.

    got lucky and was able to backwash the flex by removing the hot flex from the angle stop.

    rick.

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    • #3
      Re: Effects of a softener on a tankless

      "Another question what is the difference between Potassium Salt and regular salt?"

      I know the Potassium is a bit more expensive and so I'm told about 10% less effective. I'm also reading it is a bit better for the environment than standard salt.

      So, if you install a Takagi Tankless without a softner you have voided the Warranty?

      Okie




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      • #4
        Re: Effects of a softener on a tankless

        It doesn't have to have a softener it cand have a big blue sediment filter but the rep says they preffer a softener be installed.

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