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Tankless!!!! It is the future in water heating!!!

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  • Tankless!!!! It is the future in water heating!!!

    This is in reply to the "My tankless experience summary" in the 'Ask the Experts' Read the entire thread and let me know waht you think. I am open minded, but see the quality in these products.

    As for the service call when the guy had to run a lavatory to shower, he is correct and was prob instructed by Bosch to do that. #1 Problem with bosch/paloma/rheem - min BTU input is a little better than 30K. This extremely high compared to Takagi/Noritz/Rinnai at 12-15K. In AL we experience 80 deg. ground water in summer months and one shower is not enough flow through heater at a min of 30k to turn it on, or it will overheat and cause cold water sandwiches! Realistically, you can figure that with a 30 degree temp rise one shower will use only 15K BTU of gas for the duration of the shower (10-12 min?). That is 1/3 of a tank style at 50K and how long into the shower will it be before it kicks on at full bore? Not long. And how long will it stay on?

    In reply to NHMaster's comment on supplying water to every fixture - I know that Rinnai and Noritz use a valve that controls flow out of heater, thus, if every fixture in house was on then you would get hot water to them, but at a reduced volume. In addition, you can always install 1 tankless per bathroom and still be cheaper than one tank (In heating costs).

    I have spent months researching and taking training courses in Atlanta, GA at Noritz and Rinnai. I am auth service provider for both man. I believe that they have superior products to any tank manufactured. That is until marathon releases thier heat pump heater, which utilizes a tank. This may give them a run for thier money. Currently electricity is the least efficient way to heat water. Traditional gas and electric heaters are a thing of the past. Have you priced a 40 or 50 Gallon heater lately? Well over 400 for a rheem std unit. Tankless prices are dropping! You should be able to pick up a nice tankless for around 750.

    As far as warranty and life expectancy. In a res setting a tankless should give you 15-20 years of service. Will you have to replace a heat exchanger, or circuit board? Maybe, but you could buy both for less than 400 combined and install both in less than an hour!!

    Some of you plumbers may not like the trend, however myself as a plumber and HVAC tech am excited about it. I think the tankless are alot more technical and are going to weed out the less skilled plumbers. In 10-15 years you will be stocking parts for these heaters on your truck and doing routine maintenance on them much like we do for gas fired furnaces.

    Before you bash them and give up - check out the technological improvements they have made in last five years. i.e. modulating gas valves, cold water by-passes, dual-flame burners, type K exchangers, etc.
    And remember that in most tank style installations water temp is turned up well beyond the temp that is consumed at the fixture just ot provide quantity of hot water (meaning that the water is heated up to 120-130 just to be cooled down to 101-106 at the fixture) seems like a waste to me.

    Whether i should cover my head and crawl under my desk for cover or look for a thank you i don't know, but i hope this has shed a little light for the more skeptical of you. Looking forward to everyone's thoughts.


  • #2
    Re: Tankless!!!! It is the future in water heating!!!

    Not that much light shed. I would like to think I have kept track of the improvements you've stated. I have also watched the price increase on tank heaters and the decline in price on tankless. This is the true point of tankless market penetration just like everything in America. As this trend continues, it does look like tanks will slowly go by the wayside.

    A couple of years ago, properly sized tanks were the smarter choice & I'm gonna' try hard not to debate that. Since then, good tankless companies have been improving the product and decreasing the price closing the gap on investment vs. return.

    I also look forward to becoming more technically proficient on these also. Easier to lift & install on a changeout and they take up less room in the truck. There's just so many of them and people are buying them through the internet. Gotta' be up to date on all models by Rinnai, Takagi, Noritz, Bosch, Navien, Rheem/Paloma, etc.!!! Might have to PM you for help.

    But the more I know the more I can cover & the more I can make.

    J.C.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Tankless!!!! It is the future in water heating!!!

      Nothing wrong with cheerleading a product you believe in, but remember that the majority of americans follow this way of thinking:


      Put it in and forget it

      And you absolutely cannot do that with a tankless.


      Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Tankless!!!! It is the future in water heating!!!

        You won't get any argument from me, I installed a Noritz 751 today and have another install tomorrow. These units sell themselves, I have had one in my house for three years with no problems.
        The Other Rick

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Tankless!!!! It is the future in water heating!!!

          75% of tankless that i come across are installed wrong.

          so far i have only flushed out a few tankless heaters.

          wait till the owner foots the bill for a new heat exchanger when they lime up and leak.

          nothing wrong with a tankless properly installed and maintained.

          problem is, most i see are not and i don't see any payback in it's lifetime.

          you want payback. i'll take a picture of my 20 year old hoyt 40 gallon heater. with my $15. a month gas bill including my stove and dryer.

          i'll wait til i need to replace my heater and then might install the tankless i bought 4 years ago for my house.

          until then, preach to the ones that install them improperly. the ones that never tell the customer about preventative maintenance/ flushing.
          the only thing green about them is the check the plumber gets when they sell them.

          rick.
          phoebe it is

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Tankless!!!! It is the future in water heating!!!

            Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
            75% of tankless that i come across are installed wrong.

            so far i have only flushed out a few tankless heaters.

            wait till the owner foots the bill for a new heat exchanger when they lime up and leak.

            nothing wrong with a tankless properly installed and maintained.

            problem is, most i see are not and i don't see any payback in it's lifetime.

            you want payback. i'll take a picture of my 20 year old hoyt 40 gallon heater. with my $15. a month gas bill including my stove and dryer.

            i'll wait til i need to replace my heater and then might install the tankless i bought 4 years ago for my house.

            until then, preach to the ones that install them improperly. the ones that never tell the customer about preventative maintenance/ flushing.
            the only thing green about them is the check the plumber gets when they sell them.

            rick.
            Wow! You have cheap gas! My monthly bill would be over $15 if I turned the valve off at the meter just in minimum fees.

            I just priced a short 50gallon Rheem Propane Tank at over $600. There have been 3 increases on tank type locally this year. Meanwhile, tankless prices at my distributor have decreased while btus are up, flowrates & btus to come on are down. If the trend continues.....well you know.

            Now, why have tankless prices come down when all raw materials have gone up??? Makes me wonder if all the taxpayers paid the tankless companies all those $300.00 rebates for pure profit. Hmmmm.....

            J.C.

            (Please don't tell me how the rebates went to the homeowner. You should understand the point. Thanks.)

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Tankless!!!! It is the future in water heating!!!

              I have no idea if this is correct or not, but the tankless water heaters manufactured in the united states is the exception. All that i know of are manuf in Japan. In recent times, the scrap prices in the united states has increased (all metals, but especially copper). I was told that China and Japan were buying up the scrap from the united states and mexico. This could have an impact on cost as well as the known fact that labor in china and japan is low. This in addition to the assembly line construction methods that are used.......seems like a no brainer. But thats my own educated answer. As far as a $15 a mos. gas bill - better hope the fools at gas co don't replace meter. Sorry rick, i love you, but i would have to see it to believe it!!!!

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Tankless!!!! It is the future in water heating!!!

                Please check your PM's. Thanks.

                J.C.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Tankless!!!! It is the future in water heating!!!

                  Originally posted by MPMGinAL View Post
                  As far as a $15 a mos. gas bill - better hope the fools at gas co don't replace meter. Sorry rick, i love you, but i would have to see it to believe it!!!!
                  i was wrong it's actually $14.14 including all taxes

                  8 therms 29 day period. actual cost of 8 therms was $7.66 and asst. charges/ taxes $6.48 total of $14.14. look at my average for the last 3 months and the same 3 months of 2007. anywhere from 8-10 therms.

                  love you too

                  rick.

                  Attached Files
                  phoebe it is

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Tankless!!!! It is the future in water heating!!!

                    I stand in awe. You must elaborate!! How do you maintain that low of consumption? What kind of heater? You must eat out frequently (never needing to cook or clean dishes)? Never wash clothes? and only shower about 1/2 times per day? What kind of water heater was that again? I'm not familiar?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Tankless!!!! It is the future in water heating!!!

                      Originally posted by MPMGinAL View Post
                      I stand in awe. You must elaborate!! How do you maintain that low of consumption? What kind of heater? Hoyt 40 gallon-20 years old. We are waiting to see how long it can hold out You must eat out frequently (never needing to cook or clean dishes)? I cook dinner Monday through Thursday and I wash the dishes in a dishwasher 2-3 times/weekNever wash clothes?We both wash clothes. I am on protest of washing Rick's clothes since I peeled bubble gum out of the dryer and blue clothes out of the wash after someone left a toilet tester tablet in his shirt pocketI promise you he comes home filthy. We probably wash 2-4 loads per week, sometimes more. And we have an extra large capacity washer and dryer and only shower about 1/2 times per day? We both shower everyday. Some days Rick takes 3 showers. I use our Jacuzzi tub once every week or two.What kind of water heater was that again? I'm not familiar?
                      American Standard is now making what use to be Hoyt
                      I love my plumber

                      "My Hero"

                      Welcome, Phoebe Jacqueline!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Tankless!!!! It is the future in water heating!!!

                        Hey can you make

                        the picture any

                        bigger? I had to

                        set up another

                        computer monitor

                        just to see the whole

                        thing!



                        Anyway, 4 weeks ago

                        I had an electric water

                        heater trip at the breaker

                        that I turned off to repair

                        a shower faucet....


                        Customer called 4 days

                        later complaining of luke warm

                        water.


                        She took one shower, did dishes over

                        that time and didn't realize it was

                        cooling till monday morning

                        stating the water was luke warm.


                        Pretty impressive IMO.
                        Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Tankless!!!! It is the future in water heating!!!

                          what joey didn't mention is that the showers i take are sometimes at the customers houses

                          how else to you properly test them

                          what joey gives up in not washing my clothes is the $100 bill that i sometimes find in the dryer

                          rick.
                          phoebe it is

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Tankless!!!! It is the future in water heating!!!

                            Originally posted by DUNBAR View Post
                            Hey can you make

                            the picture any

                            bigger? I had to

                            set up another

                            computer monitor

                            just to see the whole

                            thing!


                            I just yelled at him for the same thing and he asked what I was talking about

                            Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post

                            what joey gives up in not washing my clothes is the $100 bill that i sometimes find in the dryer

                            rick.
                            I don't have to wash your dirty clothes to take the money out of the pockets. Now who's the dummy?
                            Last edited by MrsSeatDown; 11-21-2008, 03:37 AM. Reason: Had to add smilies
                            I love my plumber

                            "My Hero"

                            Welcome, Phoebe Jacqueline!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Tankless!!!! It is the future in water heating!!!

                              Originally posted by DUNBAR View Post
                              Hey can you make

                              the picture any

                              bigger? I had to

                              set up another

                              computer monitor

                              just to see the whole

                              thing!



                              Anyway, 4 weeks ago

                              I had an electric water

                              heater trip at the breaker

                              that I turned off to repair

                              a shower faucet....


                              Customer called 4 days

                              later complaining of luke warm

                              water.


                              She took one shower, did dishes over

                              that time and didn't realize it was

                              cooling till monday morning

                              stating the water was luke warm.


                              Pretty impressive IMO.
                              dunbar, the same thing with my heater that i shut down except the pilot for 5 days. came back from camping and joey started up the laundry just as i was turning the heater back on. guess what? the water coming into the washer was still very hot. the pilot kept it hot for 5 days.

                              rick.
                              phoebe it is

                              Comment

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