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  • "The Future is Fusion"

    I don't intend to start a board war or anything but I did a little post you might be interested in over at the Plumbing zone (which some of you are already a member of)

    http://www.plumbingzone.com/f21/future-fusion-1547/

  • #2
    Re: "The Future is Fusion"

    I ran into this stuff alot in Europe and the Middle East...

    One thing that was pretty consistent with the products was the tendency for pipe sag. Hot water was bad but the weird part was the cold water piping was almost as bad which led me to believe the material was the problem because the schedule always looked healthy...

    Though I could not see the pictures ( not a member but will be) I would be curious to see what the finished product looks like in a year or so after it is used and the piping has a chance to react to any stress it is under.

    Are the support rules for this product different then PVC pipe?

    Okie

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: "The Future is Fusion"

      saw lots of it in italy, greece, turkey, france 5 years ago during our honeymoon

      of couse i took pictures of it and even went to the hardware and supply house

      i'll dig up the pictures.

      rick.
      phoebe it is

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: "The Future is Fusion"

        Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
        saw lots of it in italy, greece, turkey, france 5 years ago during our honeymoon

        of couse i took pictures of it and even went to the hardware and supply house

        i'll dig up the pictures.

        rick.
        Awesome , Pictures
        Help With Your Pool Or Spa Pump?►WeT HeaD Pump Repair ► Watch Me On YouTube: Pool & Spa Pump Repair TV
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        • #5
          Re: "The Future is Fusion"

          Scott,
          any way you can put those pics on this site?
          I'm not a member of Plumbing Zone so I can't view them.
          Sounds like an interesting project.
          thanks, Gene
          INSIGHT PIPE is now Maine Drain Serving most of ME with no charge for travel! 207-431-6232 is nolonger a working # our NEW # is 207-355-1476
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          • #6
            Re: "The Future is Fusion"

            We made butt fusion equipment back in the mid-80s. It was at the time a pretty specialized market, mostly the oil industry. We bought a company in Oklahoma (P&S Engineering) that was basically job-shopping machines, and redesigned them for modern production practices. It is a pretty cool process, and was fun to work on. We eventually got out of that business, though. Can't recall if it was due to limited volume, or just not our manufacturing niche.

            It sure was fun to call the Oklahoma company and listen to the receptionist say the new combined company name with her Oklahoma twang!
            Steve
            www.MorrisGarage.com

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: "The Future is Fusion"

              My apologies guys, I didn't know you had to join that discussion board to view them. Hopefully tonight or tommorrow I'll post 'em on this site.

              I haven't noticed any sagging in the pipe yet since we got the temporary heat going but at the same time we've supported it about once every 3-5 feet. Having said that it there is a guide in their product manual which specifies support intervals and it varies with pipe size.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: "The Future is Fusion"

                Here are some pictures of a Mechanical room that I'm building right now for the greenest buildling in Canada right now which should attain Leed platinum rating.

                The pipe we are using is Fusiotherm (also called Aquatherm) which is a German Polypropolene (PP-R). This pipe is fused using irons and the result is the pipe and fitting become one after the process is performed which leads to extremely long service life. In fact they have charts in the book that list how many days per year you can run it at xx temperature at xx pressure and the pressures/temperatures we are running are generally no where near those listed for the 40+ year service life it is rated for in the charts in the book.

                There are essentially 3 pipes we are using - The Blue & Green Pipe (Climatherm) is for heating, cooling & return mains and rated for pretty much everything except potable water applications (pools, heating, cooling, some process piping, etc.). These are the mains which go to radiant boxes in every suite and are mixed or diverted accordingly as the call for heating or cooling is called for (radiant floor heating and cooling). The Green pipe with blue stripe (SDR 11) is Fusiotherm and is rated for cold water potable only for the most part and the Green Pipe with the Green pipe (SDR 7.4) which is thicker is for the domestic hot water and hot water recirc mains. This pipe can handle fairly high water movement and the system is designed at 8 feet per second but we are told they will push for 10+ feet per second service/standards which could really help reduce pipe sizes on some jobs in the future. The fittings we use are universal so they can be fused onto any of the 3 pipes shown.

                The system we are installing has 2 - 10 ton Geothermal Heat Pumps which will do the bulk of the heating, supplemented by the 2- IBC VFC 45-225 Boilers (45,000 to 225,000 Modulating Condensing Natural Gas Boilers - Made in Vancouver) in times of extreme demand on really cold days, and the heat pumps are responsible for the radiant cooling as well in the Summer. We have evaculated tubes going on the roof which will heat up 3 - 120 gallon buffer tanks worth of domestic potable water before going into 2 - 120 Gallon Indirect fired hot water tanks. In times of extreme demand when the Solar can't supply enough domestic hot water the boilers will supplement it with each boiler heating one of the indirect fired hot water tanks. There is also a fan coil in the room which the Boiler on the right will be heating to heat the storage area outside the Mechanical room.

                Right now the system is is set up for temporary heat for the buildling with one of the Boilers going as you can see, that is why it's a bit messy. One of these boilers has the balls to heat the entire 24 unit building if needed and that's what we have set up to keep the drywallers and painters happy in the mean time while we build the rest of the Mech room.

                There is also a large rainwater tank in the parkade which we divert well water previously circulated through the heat pumps and rain water into which will serve all the toilets in the buildling as well as the laundry and some irrigation. This will have a domestic potable make up in times of high demand but we anticipate the building not ever needing it.

                Note below - the 1st picture is a fused joint on 25 MM SDR 11 Fusiotherm pipe fused into a 90 (25 MM = 3/4" equivilent but with better cross sections than Copper.)

                The second picture below is that 90 but cut midway through the joint. Note that the pipe and fitting have been permanently fused to the point that you can virtually not even see a seem.

                The third picture is a 50 MM climatherm pipe that we have drilled a hole in using the Fusiotherm special saddle bit and we are preparing to install a 1/2" FIP saddle to fuse on it.

                The 4th picture is of the 2 IBC Boilers on the wall. The left one is running temporary heat as you can see by the lit up digital display. It's a primary secondary system with DHW secondary and Radiant injection secondary to supplement the heat pump but in this case it's rigged for temporary heat as you can probably figure out. We use all Wilo Pumps which are about as good as it gets for quality.

                The 5th picture shows the right boiler getting built as you can see.

                Note the Boilers are Direct Vent with CPVC 636 Flue gas venting and PVC System 15 for the intake.

                Note the black 2" Black High Density Poly Ethylene Pipe coming in behind the left boilers loops. This will be extended to the 2 Heat Pumps when they get installed.
                Attached Files

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: "The Future is Fusion"

                  Here are 5 more pictures

                  The 1st - the 3 different types of pipe we use - Lowest is the Climatherm which we use for radiant heating/cooling/return mains. The middle Green with Blue stripe (SDR 11) is for Cold Potable water, the top the Green with green stripe (SDR 7.4) we use for Domestic hot and recirc mains.

                  The second picture is a side profile of the pipes. They are pretty high density pipes too.

                  The third pipe is a finished saddle installed on the pipe.

                  The 4th and 5th pics show the main circulator pumps for the radiant heating mains which are 2 large Wilo Stratos pumps. These are big heavy bad boys but they're not even the biggest pumps in the mech room - we have 2 bigger Wilo stratos' which we will be using for the radiant cooling mains (you need to move a hell of a lot more water to do radiant cooling). These pumps are about as good as it gets if you want a truely variable speed circulator pump for radiant heating or cooling. They can detect when actuators open and thus negate the need for a differential bypass valve as you can't really dead head them.
                  Attached Files

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: "The Future is Fusion"

                    Here are 3 more pictures.

                    The 1st picture is of the small Iron we use (we have a small and a large Iron). This small Iron is designed to fuse 16 MM (3/8's) up to 63 MM (2") and everything in between. Right now it has 50 MM heads (1 1/2" equivilent) as well as the saddle head to fuse 1/2"/20 MM and 3/4"/25 MM saddles onto 50 MM pipe as you can see.

                    The second shot is of me fusing a small piece of pipe and a 90 together on the tool.

                    The third shot is putting the fitting and pipe together after the allotted fusion time has been reached on the iron.

                    To actually do this stuff you have to totally approach it differently than what you're used to doing with Copper or PVC or other types of pipe. You really have to slow down, and think about every fusion. You have much less room for error with this stuff and you really have to plan out how you are going to attack every joint and fusion with some pre-fab mixed in to make things easier. As a result this stuff REALLY puts the T back in Tradesmen. Not just anyone can do it well. It's taken me a lot of time to adjust and I'm still adjusting and getting used to doing it. This stuff was made by Germans for those who demand exceptionally reliable, durable, long lasting installations If you do it right it will easily outlast the building. And this is the crux of being environmentally responsible in my opinion. This pipe is the only pipe that is approved by green peace. It is very recycable and pure - it contains NO metals unlike PVC and CPVC. It is what I would put in my house if it needed a repipe.
                    Attached Files

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: "The Future is Fusion"

                      A guy on our geo crew and I were having a little discussion the other day about the differences between fusing PP-R and HDPE (which is what they use in Geo fields - HIgh Density Poly Ethylene for those who don't know).

                      A few key differences

                      1) He uses a cold ring on the HDPE where as the Fusiotherm specs just use a depth gauge and put some marks with a permanent marker.

                      2) He likes to chamfer the HDPE which apparently helps rollout but we don't need to do that on the PP-R.

                      3) If I'm not mistaken, the HDPE has to be absolutely hospital clean but the PP-R just has to be clean to the eye although cleaning it hospital clean ain't gonna hurt it.

                      Although I am curious what it would be like to chamfer the PP-R pipe wih his chamfering tool and use a cold ring to help better square up some of the fittings as if you don't pay attention you can easily set a fitting cockeyed a bit so you really have to have an eye for it and have a few tricks up your sleeve to help line things up and all that.

                      As far as the process for fusion, we have to have one of the Fusiotherm reps come in and they do a half day training course with you and show you the system and some of the tools. You have to be certified to use this pipe by them. The PP-R pipe itself, if I'm not mistaken, has a 50 year 6.5 Mllion Euro insurance policy as long as you conduct the warranty testing procedure that Fusiotherm provides you with and submit it back to them. It's a bit involved and takes more time then testing your average Copper, PVC, or Pex water line but it's probably one of the best warranties, err. insurance policies in the business.

                      To cut the pipe I use my Ridgid 153 Quick acting cutters with a plastic cutting wheel. This works for the SDR 11 and climatherm pipes up to 90 MM (3") and the SDR 7.4 pipe up to 63 MM (2"). You can also use a chop saw with just a conventional wood blade. The key is you want to have a nice square edge on the pipe. Then you use the depth gauge and put some marks on the pipe for depth measurement. I prefer to bottom the fitting out on the iron first and then insert the pipe onto the iron. Once you bottom both fitting and pipe out on the iron you start counting the required fusing time, pull it out of the iron and fuse the pipe and fitting together immediately. If you are in a tight place, one trick the instructor/rep told us was you can double heat the fitting and then heat the pipe up to regular time seperately. This is why I prefer to put the fitting on first, and then put the pipe on second and then start counting, because if you put the pipe on too long it tends to cause more rollout inside the pipe which can restrict flow - another example of where this stuff puts the T back in Tradesman.

                      AS for the pipe itself, it has a larger cross section than Copper. I took a look at the cross section of 20 MM (1/2" equiv) SDR 7.4 which is the thick walled stuff compared to 1/2" type L Copper and the SDR 7.4 has a about a 1/16" more cross section. When you consider that the SDR 11 and climatherm have less pipe wall this means as good or better flow rates than copper. I was told by a rep that this stuff can handle up to around something like 32 feet per second flow rates, but a safe maximum is 16 feet per second because after that theres flow noise. But it's only approved right now for about 8 I believe but they're going for more which I mentioned above.

                      Also, the metric sizing of this pipe does not add up to conventional mm's to inches conversions. Here is the equivilence below

                      16 MM = 3/8"
                      20 MM = 1/2"
                      25 MM = 3/4"
                      32 MM = 1"
                      40 MM = 1 1/4"
                      50 MM = 1 1/2"
                      63 MM = 2"
                      75 MM = 2 1/2"
                      90 MM = 3"
                      110 MM = 3 1/2"
                      125 MM = 4"

                      When you put your tape measure accross the full diameter of one of those pipes, those are the measurements you will receive for OD. So 50 MM pipe is 50 MM or 2" OD although it is 1 1/2" equivilent to Copper/Steel/PVC, etc.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: "The Future is Fusion"

                        Thanks for the reminder on cleaning the HDPE Scott.All the plumbers I have seen don't.The job I did last Friday used the denatured alcohol to clean.
                        We use the "General" brand iron out here.Do you like using the thinner profile iron and swapping out the bushings?Which brand do you guys use?After the last fiasco renting one from the supply house I've become set on getting my own.
                        The irons we have been using for our exterior,underground gas are 6"X6".The larger surface area allows one to put more sizes on it but I can see it not getting into tight spots on interioir installs.General brand has come out with a 3" iron but I'm concerned I won't be able to make a vertical rigid stand to use in a ditch.
                        A guy needs to be an octopus or else use a lot of ingenuity to hold the pipe,socket and iron.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: "The Future is Fusion"

                          The Irons we use for the PP-R are Fusiotherm designed Irons with Fusiotherm heads.

                          The guys that do the Geo at the company I work for have those wood handled irons that are similar to the Fusiotherm ones only a plastic verses wood handle and they seem a little simpler. The fusiotherm Iron has 2 LED lights to let you know when they are heating up and when it has reached temperature but you should still check the heads somehow to ensure they have reached temp like with those welders sticks that are designed to liquify at certain temps.

                          When we got our first batch of Irons from Fusiotherm (1 big one, 1 small one), they were straight from Germany with Teflon cords that could handle high heat and the cords could even touch the Iron and they wouldn't melt. We had to replace the small Iron (used quite heavily for the past several monthes I guess might be the reason it went) and the new small Iron came with a regular cord so we're investigating why it's like that and we want the original cord with the Teflon/high temp rating.

                          For the larger pipe sizes e.g. 75 MM (2 1/2") and up we have a larger Iron as well as we have a Jig with an Electric Drill. I'll have to remember to try and take some photo's of it in the new year (off for vacation right now).

                          I believe the Iron itself for the simple small Iron is around $350 just for the Iron where I live and then $60-100 for each head but I never bought my own Iron, they are company tools but like you I'm considering getting my own set up just for the 50 MM and down stuff.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: "The Future is Fusion"

                            Scott I was reading through some of what you wrote on Plumbing Zone. You are very lucky as well as very smart. It is a pity some of our elected leaders dont appreciate the talent and knowlege that would prevent them from being the morons they are when it comes to talking about climate change and greenplumbing. Our fearless leader downunder, Kevin 07 DUDD is trying to change the world with a tax that is not a tax. He preaches climate change and a whole lot of BS to boot. All he has to do, in my opinion is look at a couple of the points that you wrote. House building, thermal considerations, efficient boilers etc. When are these morons going to consult the real experts, us not the doomsday scientists that runaround like Chicken Little(the sky falling the skys falling). It is a pity that we are on the other side of the world but it is ectremely warming to know that there is intelligence in Plumbers everywhere. Thankyou.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: "The Future is Fusion"

                              scott, glad this post popped up again. you did a great job with all the photos and write ups

                              now that the work is well over a year old, how is it holding up?

                              overall, did you like working with this product and is it here to stay

                              good job once again

                              rick.
                              phoebe it is

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