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  • #16
    Re: dry fire sprinkler

    Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
    Insurance companies are gonna' be all for domestic sprinkler installs 'til they get the claims when people hit the head with the ladder etc. and don't know how to shut the thing off.

    J.C.
    If the insurance companies find a valve on the sprinklers I think they may find fault.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: dry fire sprinkler

      yeah I tapped the vial on one that was under test pressure when I was a new apprentice. I can't imagine the output of one under real pressure.
      No, it's not rocket science, it's plumbing and unlike rocket science it requires a license.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: dry fire sprinkler

        NO PEX FOR FIRE!!! Please! say a head malfucntions, i have seen it, then the pex will melt in that room opening up a stream of water in the cieling going no where and there wont be sufficient pressure elsewhere in the system to effectively work. I havent done much with sprinkler design etc, but they have specfic valves for this exact application. Besides that you wont get enough flow out of even a 1" service for this to work correctly, you would need a minimum of ususally 2-1/2" service for fire for a single family in my recollection. A lot goes into this and I do not do enough of this to give thorough advice, your best bet would be to wait for a sprinkler contactor to come on and help some more.

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        • #19
          Re: dry fire sprinkler

          Probably good advice wrench spinner. The problem is that the ICC is going to require all homes built after a set date to have a residential fire sprinkler system, for which pex will be an approved material. My understanding is that they will not be increasing the minimum water service size along with this change.
          No, it's not rocket science, it's plumbing and unlike rocket science it requires a license.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: dry fire sprinkler

            Originally posted by wrench spinner View Post
            NO PEX FOR FIRE!!! Please! say a head malfucntions, i have seen it, then the pex will melt in that room opening up a stream of water in the cieling going no where and there wont be sufficient pressure elsewhere in the system to effectively work. I havent done much with sprinkler design etc, but they have specfic valves for this exact application. Besides that you wont get enough flow out of even a 1" service for this to work correctly, you would need a minimum of ususally 2-1/2" service for fire for a single family in my recollection. A lot goes into this and I do not do enough of this to give thorough advice, your best bet would be to wait for a sprinkler contactor to come on and help some more.
            That's some big pipe spinner.Low Volume?
            1-1/2" for 5,000 square foot out here.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: dry fire sprinkler

              Originally posted by wrench spinner View Post
              NO PEX FOR FIRE!!! Please! say a head malfucntions, i have seen it, then the pex will melt in that room opening up a stream of water in the cieling going no where and there wont be sufficient pressure elsewhere in the system to effectively work. I havent done much with sprinkler design etc, but they have specfic valves for this exact application. Besides that you wont get enough flow out of even a 1" service for this to work correctly, you would need a minimum of ususally 2-1/2" service for fire for a single family in my recollection. A lot goes into this and I do not do enough of this to give thorough advice, your best bet would be to wait for a sprinkler contactor to come on and help some more.
              I don't want to touch it. Here's what's happening in my little world though. Wirsbo already has a system approved. I'm told pressure from Firefighters will force domestic sprinklers to be require in any new house. Yes I think it should be metallic but you know that builders will demand the cheapest avenue so I'm afraid it will probably be PEX or Corzan pressure looped.

              J.C.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: dry fire sprinkler

                What do you think about using CPVC?
                It's gotten to be all they use on any fire protection Commercial and residential.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: dry fire sprinkler

                  Originally posted by MoJourneyman View Post
                  Probably good advice wrench spinner. The problem is that the ICC is going to require all homes built after a set date to have a residential fire sprinkler system, for which pex will be an approved material. My understanding is that they will not be increasing the minimum water service size along with this change.
                  But we ARE responsible for properly sizing the service. Regardless of minimum size you must provide X amount of water to say... the second or third floor with normal functions happening downstairs along with the sprinkler system.

                  J.C.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: dry fire sprinkler

                    Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                    But we ARE responsible for properly sizing the service. Regardless of minimum size you must provide X amount of water to say... the second or third floor with normal functions happening downstairs along with the sprinkler system.

                    J.C.
                    good point... I think i'm going to need a bigger expander for the uponor sprinkler system.
                    No, it's not rocket science, it's plumbing and unlike rocket science it requires a license.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: dry fire sprinkler

                      Originally posted by drtyhands View Post
                      What do you think about using CPVC?
                      It's gotten to be all they use on any fire protection Commercial and residential.
                      I'm pretty ignorant to sprinklers. Seen Corzan CPVC & heard good and bad about it for commercial applications.

                      Good-Cheaper, lighter, faster install.

                      Bad-Less durable than metallic & I remember reading somewhere that a person doing normal, required tests on an existing system blowing joints.

                      J.C.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: dry fire sprinkler

                        Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                        I'm pretty ignorant to sprinklers. Seen Corzan CPVC & heard good and bad about it for commercial applications.

                        Good-Cheaper, lighter, faster install.

                        Bad-Less durable than metallic & I remember reading somewhere that a person doing normal, required tests on an existing system blowing joints.

                        J.C.


                        Yup,
                        The sprinkler contractor at one of the high rises I was working on blew an 1-1/2" 90 on the tenth floor.Lots of damage.So much so the elevators were rebuilt.
                        ToUtahNow was contacted to do research.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: dry fire sprinkler

                          how about a dry chem. fire exginguisher (FE) with a heat detector built right on to the head of the FE. it could be mounted at the same height as a wall mounted light fixture and have a broad spray pattern. or right in the middle of the ceiling.

                          or a sprinkler head holding a pin for the dry chem. FE.

                          you could even fill the FE with something called purple K. it designed to withstand big fluctuations in temp without "caking".

                          i've played with 5lber's before and they are capable of snuffing out a pretty good size room fire. a 10 or 20lber would be good for the living area and maybe one just for the kitchen.

                          that might solve some differences between HO/LL & FD, and prevent alot of needless water damage and extensive and costly maintenance.

                          Vince

                          i get $ome royalty right$!

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: dry fire sprinkler

                            actually, back to the original thought I had, if I added a check valve to the mix I could probably just fill the whole thing with RV antifreeze, then let the water flow in to balance the pressure. i'd have to recharge the system anytime a sprinkler head went off, but man, lets hope that never becomes an issue.
                            No, it's not rocket science, it's plumbing and unlike rocket science it requires a license.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: dry fire sprinkler

                              I think most dry systems use a compressor to keep the line pressurized, and a "special" check valve that will allow a full full of water, through it, a small compressor can not keep up if a head opens, one could even put a small orifice in the air line as well, but will keep the pressure up if there is air seepage, of some type, and the system dry until a head is triggered.

                              you need some fairly good GPM to run sprinkler heads even in a home system,

                              I did some study on it about a year ago for my shop and storage areas.

                              http://www.apifiregroup.com/firesprinkler/dry-pipe.html

                              a short guide look at the other pages, on the url

                              http://www.tpub.com/content/construc...s/14259_65.htm

                              "NFPA 13" seems to be the bible on sprinkler systems from what I could find,

                              here apears to be a "free" down load, (I know nothing of the site), and there seems to be other on the net, do a search for "NFPA 13 free down load"
                              http://www.esnips.com/doc/8c71e519-e...kler%20Systems
                              http://www.tpub.com/content/construc...s/14259_68.htm

                              I ended up getting a book called, "The Design and Layout of Fire Sprinkler Systems", by "Mark Bromann" I found a used copy, it puts the NFPA 13 in to more readable terms.
                              Last edited by BHD; 01-25-2009, 12:18 AM.
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                              • #30
                                Re: dry fire sprinkler


                                This is a life safety system, leave it alone. Get a sprinkler contractor to do it properly!!

                                For starters the check valve idea is good but will not work like you are talking about. Why in the heck would you want to put a pressure reducing valve in a fire sprinkler line any way!!??!!?? As far as I know PEX is NOT approved for use in fire sprinkler systems.

                                OFF RANT

                                1. Avaliable water, city water, well water, pump and tank??
                                static pressure
                                residual pressure
                                flow

                                2. How far away is this water supply and yes elevation is to be considered also (for friction losses).

                                3. Most will be on city water, so now we need to know what kind of meter they use and what type of backflow is required (for friction losses).

                                4. What type of pipe will be used, black steel, galvanized steel, copper, CPVC (the orange stuff, not Home Depot crap), (need to know this for, you guessed it, friction losses again).

                                5. Type of sprinkler heads and the spacing that will be used. This will dictate the minimum flow and pressure to be calculated for.

                                6. Need to make shop drawings and a set of hydraulic calculations stamped by the fire sprinkler contractor and submitted to the fire marshal for his approval.

                                7. Install in the house and call for inspection...........
                                1. A 200 psi hydrostatic test for two hours with no pressure drop.
                                2. A "water in the bucket" test for the most hydraulically remote heads per the calculations to prove the flow and pressure.

                                8. A dry system is not to code in a residential per NFPA 13D or NFPA 13R, you can put in a dry system per NFPA 13 but would require a dry valve and compressed air source (air compressor or nitrogen cyclinder), but then you will be limited to to use of steel pipe.

                                9. There will also need to be some type of alarm, can be as simple as an electric bell to a full blown fire alarm system inside the house and monitored by some outside company.

                                There is a little more to it but this just hits the high spots. Just remember that all components used will need to be listed for fire protection use by either UL or FM. Also residential heads will need to be used, not what the sprinkler guy at the commercial job gives you.

                                This is a life safety system, if you installed this and some one got killed in a fire could you live with yourself?? think about it.

                                Your insurance company will not reconize this as a sprinklered building since it is not installed by a sprinkler contractor and signed off on by a fire marshal.

                                Just finished doing some town houses, they had very good city water
                                static 130 psi
                                residual 100 psi
                                flow 1687 gpm
                                Had a 1" tap with a 3/4" meter (you would not believe what a 3/4" meter does to the water flow), 1" sprinkler riser with, 1" supervised slow close ball valve, double check backflow, flow switch, 175 psi releif valve and test and drain valve. Three levels with a total of 43 heads. Design was based on 16' x 16' spacing with a minimum of 13 gpm @ 7 psi at the most hydraulically demanding heads (and had to prove this with the water in the bucket test).

                                Look at this site for the components and data on sprinkler heads, there are eve some residential design guides in there.

                                http://www.reliablesprinkler.com/

                                G3

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