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  • #31
    Re: dry fire sprinkler

    Good to have a sprinkler guy on. Some of the best looking threaded pipe/grid system I ever saw was done by a sprinkler co. on a commercial job I was on.

    Here is what is happening though. Wirsbo PEX already has a "system" in place for residential sprinklers. Approvals have happened or are likely too.

    IPC & states are writing it into code to require sprinkler systems in ALL residential construction.

    I can't speak for everywhere, but there will be ALOT of them on private wells.

    The friction loss you mention is right on. Many even screw it up in plumbing.

    Code enforcement is giving heavy consideration to providing a "Residential Sprinkler Provisionary License" of some sort to plumbing contractors without any installation experience.

    One inspector stated that because it will come from potable water that only a plumber could touch it but maybe only a sprinkler contractor could install the heads.

    All the details aren't ironed out yet.

    J.C.

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: dry fire sprinkler

      Keep in mind I have never personally installed one, but I have done some research on the Wirsbo fire sprinkler system. The heads get installed in the appropriate locations just like a normal fire sprinkler system. The difference is instead of having one large pipe run to each head, the Wirsbo system heads have four or five 1/2" ports per head. You plumb the cold water for the house through the heads, and the leftover ports on the heads all get tied into other heads. That way, each time you turn on a faucet or flush the toilet, the water is flowing through your sprinkler pipes, instead of getting stagnant like in a conventional fire sprinkler system. I don't think Wirsbo would put a fire sprinkler system on the market if it didn't work. I could only imagine the lawsuits for that. I think NHMaster said his company installs this system.

      Comment


      • #33
        Dry system or not, you need the correct backflow device

        Originally posted by MoJourneyman View Post
        I'm kicking around the idea of installing a wirsbo fire sprinkler system at my house. Now, my concern is that I live in Missouri, and while we don't see the extremes in temperature that a lot of you see, it still freezes here. So while the idea of insulating the system isn't bad, it just won't cut it in a non flowing system at 5 degrees outside. So here's what i'm thinking; I seperate the sprinkler system from the rest of the potable system with a pressure reducing valve set to 80 psi. Immediately after the PRV I put in a tee, terminating the branch with a gauge assembly. When the system is complete, I pressurize the sprinkler side of the system to about 90 psi, then turn the water back on. That should keep water from entering the sprinkler side unless their is a pressure drop, which would hopefully only be when high heat sets off a sprinkler head. Thoughts? Suggestions? Better ideas?

        A PRV is not the correct form of backflow protection from potable to non-potable.

        DCVA is a correct device and a RPZ if chemical injection is involved.


        PRV's regardless of them stating they are a check valve by nature, seen to many of them leak when the pressure is off, releasing the contents from above.


        Why hasn't anyone mentioned this?
        Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: dry fire sprinkler

          Not sure where you are at but here in TN it became law that a fire sprinkler license was need in 1976, before that just about anybody could install fire sprinklers. But then again people took more pride in their work back then. I do not agree with plumbers installing fire sprinklers in the least. How would the plumbers like it if I started doing plumbing (likes thats going to happen). Just becase it is potable water does not mean anything, what about lawn irrigation, process water, swimming pools, boilers, car washes, etc.

          Guess I need to check some things out about this pex, personaly I think it would be junk for fire sprinklers, too easy to kink or flatten the soft plastic tubing resutling in low or no water. I guess I'm too old school for that junk!!

          I do very little residential, the town houses just came up and I was highly recommended for the job and the contractor would not stop hounding me. Made some good money and was a snap to install. Used CPVC, pretty good stuff, just have to use plenty of hangers.

          G3

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: dry fire sprinkler

            Originally posted by G3sprinklers View Post
            Not sure where you are at but here in TN it became law that a fire sprinkler license was need in 1976, before that just about anybody could install fire sprinklers. But then again people took more pride in their work back then. I do not agree with plumbers installing fire sprinklers in the least. How would the plumbers like it if I started doing plumbing (likes thats going to happen). Just becase it is potable water does not mean anything, what about lawn irrigation, process water, swimming pools, boilers, car washes, etc.

            Guess I need to check some things out about this pex, personaly I think it would be junk for fire sprinklers, too easy to kink or flatten the soft plastic tubing resutling in low or no water. I guess I'm too old school for that junk!!

            I do very little residential, the town houses just came up and I was highly recommended for the job and the contractor would not stop hounding me. Made some good money and was a snap to install. Used CPVC, pretty good stuff, just have to use plenty of hangers.

            G3
            I'm in NC. Howdy . I don't disagree with you and the protection of your trade. I think it should all be hard piped.

            J.C.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: dry fire sprinkler

              I thought that orange CPVC is the best product out there?

              They say you can throw that stuff into a fire barrel and it won't melt, just slowly bend over, collapse.


              Can't see how pex would substantiate itself if it is not fire-rated. Just because water is in it doesn't mean it wouldn't melt.

              First termination where the water leaves, it's now a toxic plastic burning with no purpose.


              Tie backs might be a wonderful thing, but one falling timber can cut those lines and disable.
              Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: dry fire sprinkler

                Here we have to have three license to be a sprinkler contractor

                1. Sprinkler contractors license issued by the state.
                2. A Responsible Managing Employee license (RME) which you must be NICET level III or have a PE license.
                3. A contractors license for CMC-D (which is a sprinkler license) if you want to do work over $25,000 per contract.

                Lot of contractors have number 3 and think they are a sprinkeler contractor but they are not.

                I do not have a problem with plumbers doing sprinkler work as long as they have the proper license. If they make a division for residetial installs only it might not be too bad, but then again it falls on the AHJ to know the codes AND ENFORCE them. I just love a tough AHJ as long as they are tough on everyone. I do not install crap and like my workmanship to shine for anyone who looks at it, even if they don't know what it is.

                G3

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: dry fire sprinkler

                  Originally posted by DUNBAR View Post
                  I thought that orange CPVC is the best product out there?

                  They say you can throw that stuff into a fire barrel and it won't melt, just slowly bend over, collapse.


                  Can't see how pex would substantiate itself if it is not fire-rated. Just because water is in it doesn't mean it wouldn't melt.

                  First termination where the water leaves, it's now a toxic plastic burning with no purpose.


                  Tie backs might be a wonderful thing, but one falling timber can cut those lines and disable.
                  I think they are coming from that they have a reasonable system that will provide a much higher % of protection than nothing at a smaller price. (Haven't priced any of it though)

                  While it wouldn't be the best system, it would be an acceptable system. We could run all potable residential water lines in Type K with brazed & scoped joints, right?

                  Like I said, I think a Sprinkler Contractor should hard pipe it.

                  J.C.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Dry system or not, you need the correct backflow device

                    Originally posted by DUNBAR View Post
                    A PRV is not the correct form of backflow protection from potable to non-potable.

                    DCVA is a correct device and a RPZ if chemical injection is involved.


                    PRV's regardless of them stating they are a check valve by nature, seen to many of them leak when the pressure is off, releasing the contents from above.


                    Why hasn't anyone mentioned this?
                    brass sprinkler heads, in a pex line, no part of that is non-potable. Were I to use the rv antifreeze, then yes, an rpz.
                    No, it's not rocket science, it's plumbing and unlike rocket science it requires a license.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: dry fire sprinkler

                      Originally posted by G3sprinklers View Post
                      Not sure where you are at but here in TN it became law that a fire sprinkler license was need in 1976, before that just about anybody could install fire sprinklers. But then again people took more pride in their work back then. I do not agree with plumbers installing fire sprinklers in the least. How would the plumbers like it if I started doing plumbing (likes thats going to happen). Just becase it is potable water does not mean anything, what about lawn irrigation, process water, swimming pools, boilers, car washes, etc.

                      Guess I need to check some things out about this pex, personaly I think it would be junk for fire sprinklers, too easy to kink or flatten the soft plastic tubing resutling in low or no water. I guess I'm too old school for that junk!!

                      I do very little residential, the town houses just came up and I was highly recommended for the job and the contractor would not stop hounding me. Made some good money and was a snap to install. Used CPVC, pretty good stuff, just have to use plenty of hangers.

                      G3
                      Whole different world here. I tend to agree, and would love to see a license here for sprinkler installs, however, we're lucky to have a plumbing license in the city, much less a license for work in the surrounding counties. Any *** can come here, and call themself a plumber as long as they don't work in the City of Springfield. I believe the idea here behind the proposed use of pex, is that anything is better than nothing. for Commercial work, no competition here, I don't have or want a rollgroover, and the tedium involved in hanging all that black pipe just doesn't appeal to me. CPVC has always been a love hate deal for me, it's easy to install, but seems like it comes apart very easily. All that said, if they do start requiring sprinklers in all new residential work with pex as an allowable material, I'll be that *** installing it. The permissible install here is looking like just a branch off the potable water supply, no backflow prevention, no requirement to have a fixture on the end of the line, Just a tee.
                      No, it's not rocket science, it's plumbing and unlike rocket science it requires a license.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: dry fire sprinkler

                        Originally posted by MoJourneyman View Post
                        actually, back to the original thought I had, if I added a check valve to the mix I could probably just fill the whole thing with RV antifreeze, then let the water flow in to balance the pressure. i'd have to recharge the system anytime a sprinkler head went off, but man, lets hope that never becomes an issue.

                        Prety sure RV antifreeze (propylene glycol)has a flamability rating.

                        May not wat to use it in a sprinkler system...

                        Okie

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: dry fire sprinkler

                          Originally posted by OkieBill View Post
                          Prety sure RV antifreeze (propylene glycol)has a flamability rating.

                          May not wat to use it in a sprinkler system...

                          Okie
                          see there we go, thats why i'm fielding this idea here.
                          think i'm going to go with the larger fire extinguisher and a donation to the local FD idea.
                          No, it's not rocket science, it's plumbing and unlike rocket science it requires a license.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: dry fire sprinkler

                            Propylene glycol is used in antifreeze loops on fire sprinklers everyday. Just got through putting one back in service after the owners would not maintain the mixture on it and it froze and broke a 2 x 2 x 1 tee.

                            The reason propylene glycol is used is because it is less toxic than ethylene glycol. Glycerine can be used in Listed CPVC.

                            If a antifreeze loop is installed a rpz backflow should be used.

                            G3

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: dry fire sprinkler

                              Originally posted by G3sprinklers View Post
                              Propylene glycol is used in antifreeze loops on fire sprinklers everyday. Just got through putting one back in service after the owners would not maintain the mixture on it and it froze and broke a 2 x 2 x 1 tee.

                              The reason propylene glycol is used is because it is less toxic than ethylene glycol. Glycerine can be used in Listed CPVC.

                              If a antifreeze loop is installed a rpz backflow should be used.

                              G3
                              It is still a flamable substance....

                              Though I'm sure the environmental benefits out weight the flamability issues by a longshot.....

                              I tried getting the military (Air Force) to switch to Prop glycol for use in hydronic sustems they would not make the switch due to the flamability issues LOL!

                              Okie

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: dry fire sprinkler

                                "I thought that orange CPVC is the best product out there?

                                They say you can throw that stuff into a fire barrel and it won't melt, just slowly bend over, collapse."

                                I used to think CPVC was pretty tough, too. That was before I was called out to fix a leak on a 2" water line in a joist bay between floors with a 1-1/2" CPVC fire line sitting 6" away in the same bay. Fire line was shut off (by others), but not drained. I know I shouldn't have assumed, I should have checked. Anyway, we've got a shield set up between our copper line and the fire line as well as a bunch of low voltage data and audio/video spaghetti. We're soldering along, keeping everything wet (wood, wires, etc.) when boom, the fire line ruptures. Scared the snot out of everybody. No direct flame, just heat buildup.

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