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The "Once and For ALL" Tankless Thread!

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  • #16
    Re: The "Once and For ALL" Tankless Thread!

    A recirc line seems to defeat the purpose of the tankless system. The idea is to not heat water when it is not needed. By recirculating the water you create a constant demand.

    If you want instant hot water use a smaller unit closer to where you need the hot water quickly.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: The "Once and For ALL" Tankless Thread!

      Originally posted by Tyman View Post

      Other than that, I don't recommend them. NHmaster brought up some good points. You dismissed them as being half true so lets talk about it.

      Please try to sell me on tankless. Plumbers already know this rodeo.
      First of all I'm NOT trying to sell you anything. I offered my hand to anyone who had questions regarding tankless.

      Despite what you may think there are people out there installing them. I however don't think there is enough honest discussion regarding them.

      The two things I despise most of Tankless manufactures are their nearsightedness regarding internet sales and sales through home centers

      I do believe when sized and installed correctly the advantages are tremendous.

      Originally posted by Tyman View Post
      Here are some questions.


      Originally posted by Tyman View Post
      Does a tankless require it's own dedicated electrical circuit?
      Some do, some don't, some don't even require electric.
      The ones that don't require a dedicated circuit are pigtailed and have a built in GFI breaker. If a code inspector tells you it needs to be a dedicated circuit, by golly, you better dedicate it.


      Originally posted by Tyman View Post
      When venting out a wall does it matter which side of the house it is on?


      Depends, some units are tested into 120 mph head winds, most are not.
      You should always take into account what side of the building (or cubby holes) you vent out of. This in not something new here.....you have to take these things into consideration as you would a direct vent furnace, water heater or boiler.

      Originally posted by Tyman View Post
      How often should they be cleaned and how long does it take?


      Depends on your water quality. I've seen units that have never been cleaned.

      I can tell you this, there are two types of tankless out there, ones who employ bypass technology and those who don't. The bypass units will have to be cleaned a lot more frequently as they heat the water in the heat exchanger to 160 - 180 degrees before mixing down to the set point temp (120).

      I have a non-bypass system in my house that has not been cleaned since I installed it 4 years ago and I HAVE 22 GRAINS HARDNESS!

      Originally posted by Tyman View Post
      Does the use of a recirc. line shorten the warranty of the unit?


      Some manufacturers reduce the warranty if a re-circ is used "through the heat exchanger". Others, it does not effect the warranty.

      It trick is not over sizing to pump and eroding the copper.

      Originally posted by Tyman View Post
      (1)Will the customer save on their gas bill? (2)Will their water bill go up?


      (1)Depends. If the customer doesn't change his water usage characteristics greatly...yes. If the customer runs the shower 4-5 hours a day...then no.

      (2) Depends, was the water lines re-routed to get the unit to an outside wall? And remember it takes anywhere between 7-15 seconds to get up to temperature. If the unit is generally close to the water source then the water usage is not that noticeable. If you have cross plumbing it could take minutes to get to the shower.


      Originally posted by Tyman View Post
      Do you believe these units will last 20 years like manufactures claim?


      Can the copper piping in a house last 20 years? I bet your answer will be, "Depends on water quality".

      They can and have lasted that long.....but I wouldn’t venture outside of the warranty in most cases.

      Have I seen tank-type heaters piss the floor in a year’s time? YES and have I seen them last 30 years? YES

      Nothing is bulletproof.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: The "Once and For ALL" Tankless Thread!

        Originally posted by EasyEman View Post
        A recirc line seems to defeat the purpose of the tankless system. The idea is to not heat water when it is not needed. By recirculating the water you create a constant demand.

        If you want instant hot water use a smaller unit closer to where you need the hot water quickly.


        While you do lose efficiency due to the heat loss in your loop, a lot of people put them on timers to reduce the loss.

        Here's a question nobody has asked.....what is more efficient a tankless re-circ system or a tank-type re-circ system? (that question is not directly at you EE)

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: The "Once and For ALL" Tankless Thread!

          Originally posted by EasyEman View Post
          A recirc line seems to defeat the purpose of the tankless system. The idea is to not heat water when it is not needed.
          If the customer's goal is saving energy, I agree with you. If it's lots of hot water immediately, as in the case of 90% of my customers, then I disagree.

          Originally posted by EasyEman View Post
          By recirculating the water you create a constant demand.
          Wiring the pump to an aquastat and timer can greatly decrease heater cycling.

          Originally posted by EasyEman View Post
          If you want instant hot water use a smaller unit closer to where you need the hot water quickly.
          In the majority of my applications that would dictate multiple units, since my customers want hot water quickly everywhere.
          Last edited by Plumbus; 03-08-2009, 06:18 PM.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: The "Once and For ALL" Tankless Thread!

            i can tell you that a tankless with a recirc will be lucky to last 10 years. most recircs i see don't have timers, or thermostats. 24/7 will erode the copper in no time. especially being 1/2'' with lots of bends.

            a tankless installed as a point of use is what is the best method. unfortunatly, house built here in the usa are not plumbed for point of use.

            forget about internet sales and home center sales, it's plumbers and general contractors that are not installing them properly. until qualified people install them properly and qualified inspectors sign off on them, tankless will be nothing but issues in the near future.

            quote me as saying tankless will become the next bank forclosure disaster.

            unqualified installers are going to kill the market as these things start to fail.

            give it a few more years and i'll say i told you so.

            rick.
            phoebe it is

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: The "Once and For ALL" Tankless Thread!

              Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
              i can tell you that a tankless with a recirc will be lucky to last 10 years. most recircs i see don't have timers, or thermostats. 24/7 will erode the copper in no time. especially being 1/2'' with lots of bends. rick.
              Timers, aquastats, 3/4" L return lines with long turn 90's and a maintenance program, or Rick's prediction is a good bet.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: The "Once and For ALL" Tankless Thread!

                Originally posted by Plumbus View Post
                Timers, aquastats, 3/4" L return lines with long turn 90's and a maintenance program, or Rick's prediction is a good bet.

                what i meant to convey is that tankless has 1/2'' waterways with lots of bends.

                the heat exchanger is what's going to fail.

                we already know recirc lines fail due to oversized pumps, running 24/7, lack of reaming, turbulance.

                mix that with a heat exchanger that's 1/2'' with a blow torch of a burner running on it.

                rick.
                phoebe it is

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: The "Once and For ALL" Tankless Thread!

                  Good point, Rick. Perhaps Navien's condensing technology with it's recirc tank built in (once it's debugged), Eternity's stainless heat exchanger tank, or some other bright idea will be the answer to both the technological and American mind set problems. I just hope the solution comes sooner rather than later.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: The "Once and For ALL" Tankless Thread!

                    I tell my customers that the technology has not caught up with the idea yet. most people want to save money not energy, no matter how green they are. tankless is not the answer yet.
                    Mike
                    Clark County Plumbing And Drain
                    www.plumbinginclarkcounty.com

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: The "Once and For ALL" Tankless Thread!

                      Onceandforall,

                      Thank you for your reply. It was exactly what I wanted. Please do not take offense.

                      Those of us who have dealt with tankless problems go through this tango. I have dealt with three different manufactures of tankless and your replies sound exactly like the people I talk with on the phone.

                      Try this, maybe that, could be this, call me when you do that. That sounds ok but when your the guy at 7:00 on a Saturday night and the owners are hot it is no fun. Telling them you will order a inducer motor Monday because the supply houses don't stock repair parts is a good time. It is not a training issue either. Manufactures are constantly changing the board and sequence operations and voltage ranges on these unit.

                      The fact is, plumbers are the ones holding the bag on this. Manufactures blame plumbers for everything from venting, gas lines sizing, bad electrical, water quality, add a point of use, install a recirc. loop, water line sizing and the list goes on.

                      You mentioned venting is nothing new here, I disagree. Those exchangers have smaller inlets/outlets/tubing and when placed on a outside wall with a steady wind it can freeze in no time via the vent. Also their are restrictions on venting when a pool or hot tub is in close proximity. Some units have inducer motor speeds set very low to help with energy conservation. Negative pressure on the vent causes the unit not to vent properly and then shutting down of course in the middle of a shower, due to over heating.

                      Tankless manufactures like to talk about how they have been used in Europe for so long but they don't talk about how differently we live and build. Smaller homes, tankless units are installed in the bathroom, temps set on those units are set so that when they take a shower they just turn the hot valve all the way on and no cold is used. Lower temps set on tankless substantially increase their life span. It is a whole different game.

                      Just look at venting:
                      Rinnai, Noritz, Bosche just to name a few all use different material, sizing and types of vent. Good grief. I'll just stick with my 40 gal. natural gas for 300.00 bucks.

                      Warranty: Lets say I find that a customer has installed the unit in the wrong location and needs moved to make it work. Not only do they have to pay me for replumbing and venting it, they also get their warranty voided. Not cool.

                      Don't get me wrong here, I love technology and new things but in the case of tankless, until things change, the customer and plumber loose on this.
                      Anyone can tear a man down, few can build one up.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: The "Once and For ALL" Tankless Thread!

                        I have not seen a residential customer that needed endless hot water. Ever. They need the adequate amount for their lifestyles and the fixtures therein.

                        I have not had any complaints from installing a properly sized/installed tank heater. Not even lack of hot water. Ever.

                        Tanks are WAY more flexible, perform fine with less maintenance, and give the customers what they want without some of the drawbacks involved with tankless models such as cold water sandwiching, flow rate requirements for them to activate, and power requirements.

                        Most residential customers stay in a home less than 7 years last I checked making any small monthly savings redundant vs. cost of investment for installation and the interest lost on that cost. In short, if you're looking to save money, it's currently a stupid "investment" in the U.S. Only places I've seen where sq. ft. payback comes into play are places like London where some real estate was bringing $10,000.00 sq/ft.! Prices can change though. If you want to gain some room, put a tank in a hut.

                        All of the tables I've seen will give you a temp degree rise & gpm produced at that rise. But they will not give you the winter temperature of incoming water at each installation that you're going to encounter. Some water lines' shallow burial depth can make incoming water be around 50 degrees or even lower. To put that in perspective, some tankless units that are rated for 2 to 3 bathrooms at 199,999 btu's would only give you around 4.3 gpm at the required 77 degrees rise. That's less than 2 flow restricted showerheads. I highlight winter temperature as this is the most taxing time on water heater systems and that is the point where everything should be calculated or you're going to get callbacks or complaints. I don't do well with either. That's why I favor tanks.

                        I won't even touch on the redundant stupidity of circulating lines & some of the diagrams the manufacturers provide.

                        The people that I've encountered that "love their tankless" usually adjust their behavior to accommadate it's output or to justify their "educated" decision.

                        Onceandforall, I do hope you stay as I and others might have questions you can answer regarding some of these things that we're going to run into. Are you a tech person for Rinnai? Noritz? others?

                        But I have to say it's a little presumptious for someone to come into any public forum early on and start a thread assuming they are the authority on anything.

                        J.C.
                        Last edited by BobsPlumbing; 03-08-2009, 08:40 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: The "Once and For ALL" Tankless Thread!

                          Plumbus, I spent the day yesterday with the eternal factory rep. Amazing unit. Absolutly nothing like the current spate of crap that is on the market today. Whole lot more money though. The amount of water these babies will deliver is staggering. Then again, the technology is not particulary new.

                          I'll tell you what though. I am damn tired of the Rinnai, Noritz, Tagaki and all the other guys touting thirty year old technology as though it was the second coming. I agree 1000% with Rick. These things are going to be the lawsuits of the very near future. (along with pex) (another veiled hi-jack attempt)
                          sigpic

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: The "Once and For ALL" Tankless Thread!

                            Originally posted by Tyman View Post
                            Onceandforall,
                            Originally posted by Tyman View Post

                            Thank you for your reply. It was exactly what I wanted. Please do not take offense.

                            Those of us who have dealt with tankless problems go through this tango. I have dealt with three different manufactures of tankless and your replies sound exactly like the people I talk with on the phone.
                            No offense taken, but in all fairness you asked me general questions and I gave general answers. Maybe I was trying to hard to cover the gambit of manufacturers.

                            Originally posted by Tyman View Post
                            Try this, maybe that, could be this, call me when you do that. That sounds ok but when your the guy at 7:00 on a Saturday night and the owners are hot it is no fun. Telling them you will order a inducer motor Monday because the supply houses don't stock repair parts is a good time. It is not a training issue either. Manufactures are constantly changing the board and sequence operations and voltage ranges on these unit.


                            I would agree, not a good time. It's strange to me that supply houses in your area don't have parts......damn near every supplier i speak with asks about repair parts.....no ones to blame in that situation but the factory sales person for not making that part of the stocking inventory.

                            Originally posted by Tyman View Post
                            The fact is, plumbers are the ones holding the bag on this. Manufactures blame plumbers for everything from venting, gas lines sizing, bad electrical, water quality, add a point of use, install a recirc. loop, water line sizing and the list goes on.


                            Sometimes that is the case, sometimes the company are at fault. But the "blame the plumber first" is NOT a standard practice with most companies. But to be fair, i've seen several units that the plumber ripped off the wall because it wasn't working only to find out that they never checked and cleaned the filter.

                            Originally posted by Tyman View Post
                            You mentioned venting is nothing new here, I disagree. Those exchangers have smaller inlets/outlets/tubing and when placed on a outside wall with a steady wind it can freeze in no time via the vent. Also their are restrictions on venting when a pool or hot tub is in close proximity. Some units have inducer motor speeds set very low to help with energy conservation. Negative pressure on the vent causes the unit not to vent properly and then shutting down of course in the middle of a shower, due to over heating.


                            Sorry I was a little vague on that one.....I was referring to venting into head winds as being nothing new. Good point though.

                            Originally posted by Tyman View Post
                            Tankless manufactures like to talk about how they have been used in Europe for so long but they don't talk about how differently we live and build. Smaller homes, tankless units are installed in the bathroom, temps set on those units are set so that when they take a shower they just turn the hot valve all the way on and no cold is used. Lower temps set on tankless substantially increase their life span. It is a whole different game.


                            the lower temp issue is dead on. That is why there is so much problems with calcification in the by-pass type of tankless. the heat exchanger is anywhere from 250 to 400+ degrees. Use the ones that don't use this technology.

                            Originally posted by Tyman View Post
                            Just look at venting:
                            Originally posted by Tyman View Post
                            Rinnai, Noritz, Bosche just to name a few all use different material, sizing and types of vent. Good grief. I'll just stick with my 40 gal. natural gas for 300.00 bucks.
                            I agree, it can be a pain if you install everybody’s equipment.

                            how much are you paying for 40 gal. direct vent these days?

                            Originally posted by Tyman View Post
                            Warranty: Lets say I find that a customer has installed the unit in the wrong location and needs moved to make it work. Not only do they have to pay me for replumbing and venting it, they also get their warranty voided. Not cool.


                            How does moving a heater void its warranty? If you have been up against this before....I'd suggest not telling them you moved it.

                            Originally posted by Tyman View Post
                            Don't get me wrong here, I love technology and new things but in the case of tankless, until things change, the customer and plumber loose on this.


                            Thanks for sharing this post. I'm not trying to sell anybody anything they don't want to buy.....the intent was to help anybody if they had any questions. But it seems I may have been the rabbit accidentally running into to dog pin trying to escape cat.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: The "Once and For ALL" Tankless Thread!

                              Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                              All of the tables I've seen will give you a temp degree rise & gpm produced at that rise. But they will not give you the winter temperature of incoming water at each installation that you're going to encounter. Some water lines' shallow burial depth can make incoming water be around 50 degrees or even lower. To put that in perspective, some tankless units that are rated for 2 to 3 bathrooms at 199,999 btu's would only give you around 4.3 gpm at the required 77 degrees rise. That's less than 2 flow restricted showerheads. I highlight winter temperature as this is the most taxing time on water heater systems and that is the point where everything should be calculated or you're going to get callbacks or complaints. I don't do well with either. That's why I favor tanks.
                              You should always size a tankless heater for winter ground water temps.
                              If you need any help finding temp rise charts let me know...everybody has them. See if the ones below are the type you are looking for.

                              http://www.takagi.com/download/product_specifications/T-M1.pdf
                              http://america.navien.com/PDS/ftp/NavienCondensingTankless/Residential/CompetitorCrossReference/Navien-CR-240A-Competitor-Cross-Reference-Chart.pdf
                              And yes you can run multiple showers in the winter time....I can give you some numbers of people in Buffalo if you wish...they have the coldest water is the country, IMHO.

                              Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                              I won't even touch on the redundant stupidity of circulating lines & some of the diagrams the manufacturers provide.
                              I have seen some bad one out there. cant argue that.

                              Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                              The people that I've encountered that "love their tankless" usually adjust their behavior to accommadate it's output or to justify their "educated" decision.
                              lol

                              Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                              Onceandforall, I do hope you stay as I and others might have questions you can answer regarding some of these things that we're going to run into. Are you a tech person for Rinnai? Noritz? others?
                              I'm not going anywhere. And no, I'm not a tech eventhough I do a lot of technical support.

                              Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                              But I have to say it's a little presumptious for someone to come into any public forum early on and start a thread assuming they are the authority on anything.

                              J.C.
                              please explain how I was presumptuous in starting this thread?

                              I believe you may have mistaken my intentions.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: The "Once and For ALL" Tankless Thread!

                                Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                                Plumbus, I spent the day yesterday with the eternal factory rep. Amazing unit. Absolutly nothing like the current spate of crap that is on the market today. Whole lot more money though. The amount of water these babies will deliver is staggering. Then again, the technology is not particulary new.

                                I'll tell you what though. I am damn tired of the Rinnai, Noritz, Tagaki and all the other guys touting thirty year old technology as though it was the second coming. I agree 1000% with Rick. These things are going to be the lawsuits of the very near future. (along with pex) (another veiled hi-jack attempt)
                                I get it.....you don't like tankless.

                                Quit trying to hi-jack this thread. lol

                                I'm actually reading up on the eternal.....start a thread regarding it....I'd like to pick your brain. lol

                                Comment

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