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  • #16
    Re: ok all you copper tubing experts...

    I BELIEVE ITS DUE TO LACK OF EDUCATION IN THE TRADE.. IN THE NON UNION SECTOR OF COURSE

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    • #17
      Re: ok all you copper tubing experts...

      Back to the Topic:
      That looks like erosion (pitting) due to the water increasing its velocity in the return line.
      We had a customer with this problem in an apartment complex where the original plumber had installed 3/4" distributuion piping but only 1/2" circ lines. There is an increase in velocity when the pipe reduces in size. Added to the speed that a circulating pump is providing and throw in a little bit of minerals for abrasion and this is the result.

      As for reaming copper pipe, as far as I know no one around here (Michigan) does it. Maybe another Michigan plumber knows differently.

      We don't use water soluble flux either. Please, no insults, no arguments, it just isn't common practice and our copper pipe installations are lasting 50-60 years or more, except the circ lines we are talking about. There are thousands of installations that were made in the 40s,50s & 60s and the copper pipe is as good today as it was then. Probably due to the soft water we have around here.
      Last edited by APHCO; 04-16-2009, 12:10 AM. Reason: clarity

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      • #18
        Re: ok all you copper tubing experts...

        Originally posted by plumbworker View Post
        I RUN ALOT OF CU DWV AND OTHER GUYS LOOK AT ME CRAZY WHEN THEY SEE ME REAMING VENTS I JUST TELL THEM I DO EVERY THING BY THE BOOK COPPER TUBING SHALL BE REAMED TO ITS FULL BORE AS PER CODE.
        I have to say I think reaming dry vents is a little over kill. I don't know if vent gases can become turbulent.
        West Trail Mechanical Ltd
        Service. Commitment. Expertise.

        www.westtrailmechanical.ca

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        • #19
          Re: ok all you copper tubing experts...

          Originally posted by bigPipe09 View Post
          I have to say I think reaming dry vents is a little over kill. I don't know if vent gases can become turbulent.
          Have You looked at HIS WORK? The Guy polishes the ice cubes, like My friend Klaus
          from Germany! Very neat ! My wife wants to marry Him,I'm a slob!
          I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

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          • #20
            Re: ok all you copper tubing experts...

            Originally posted by APHCO View Post
            Back to the Topic:
            That looks like erosion (pitting) due to the water increasing its velocity in the return line.
            We had a customer with this problem in an apartment complex where the original plumber had installed 3/4" distributuion piping but only 1/2" circ lines. There is an increase in velocity when the pipe reduces in size. Added to the speed that a circulating pump is providing and throw in a little bit of minerals for abrasion and this is the result.

            As for reaming copper pipe, as far as I know no one around here (Michigan) does it. Maybe another Michigan plumber knows differently.

            We don't use water soluble flux either. Please, no insults, no arguments, it just isn't common practice and our copper pipe installations are lasting 50-60 years or more, except the circ lines we are talking about. There are thousands of installations that were made in the 40s,50s & 60s and the copper pipe is as good today as it was then. Probably due to the soft water we have around here.
            I have to agree with you. I've never seen anyone in MI ream copper tubing. Most of the water heaters are located in basements so a recirculation pump is not necessary.
            Distractions are everywhere, don't lose sight of your dream.

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            • #21
              Re: ok all you copper tubing experts...

              What size pump?

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              • #22
                Re: ok all you copper tubing experts...

                Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                10-15 years 24/7 is a miracle it lasted this long.

                is that 1/2''?

                Yes. There is a 1/2" return and a 3/4" return coming from different areas in the building. Balanced by circuit setters.

                what size pump?

                I had it wrote down, but now I can't find it. I THINK it is a up-15.

                what's the water chemistry?

                Municipal water supply. Other than that, don't know. Going by everything else around here, I would estimate the hardness at 20-25 grains. Didn't check it tho.

                what's the track record in your local service area?

                This is in a different town than I usually work in, so I hesitate to say too much.

                for me, 10-15 years 24/7 is excellent.

                all my pumps get a timer to cut down on the wear and tear.

                I worked in this several years ago after it opened and begged them to put a timer or aquastat on the circ line. The place was sold, and now I'm back. Somewhere along the lway an aquastat was put on the line.

                type m will of course pit and leak sooner than type l. so will 1/2'' compared to 3/4'' compared to 1''.

                This is type L.
                my buddy steve has been experimenting with a custom made flow restricter he makes and installs on his re-circ systems. he's gotten a good service history of this and slowing the flow to just keep the water moving is the trick. water just needs to be kept in motion. its not a race

                please answer some of the questions as it will help lead to the answers you're looking for.

                rick.
                I have no idea on the flux used- I didn't put it in.

                Didn't look at the joints close enough to see if they were reamed. I would be shocked if they were.

                Another thing- you know how you can bend rigid copper tubing over your knee? Well, I cut out about 14' that day, and I was going fold it up to get it out to the truck. When I tried to bend it, it didn't bend, it snapped in half, like it was brittle. I've never had that happen before.

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                • #23
                  Re: ok all you copper tubing experts...

                  Here is a good link, I used it in another thread but it applies here as well

                  Copper Erosion

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                  • #24
                    Re: ok all you copper tubing experts...

                    Originally posted by wrench spinner View Post
                    Here is a good link, I used it in another thread but it applies here as well

                    Copper Erosion
                    Here's another good link.
                    http://www.xs4all.nl/~cdewaard/#ErCor

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                    • #25
                      Re: ok all you copper tubing experts...

                      Originally posted by wrench spinner View Post
                      Here is a good link, I used it in another thread but it applies here as well

                      Copper Erosion
                      This is why I ream. thanks
                      I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

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                      • #26
                        Re: ok all you copper tubing experts...

                        I got sent out to do a 2" copper main for a 6 unit strip mall a few weeks ago, the triangular reamer on my smallish ridgid tubing cutter wouldn't do the trick. I have the big spring loaded lenox tubing cutter with no reamer on it. so I called my supplier and asked them to send a reaming tool with my order. he said he'd have to see if he could find one to special order, they aren't stocked.

                        So I called another supply house, they told me that no one ever asks for them so they don't carry them. That went on down the line until I ran out of supply houses. I ended up borrowing one from one of our 30 year apprentices.

                        It absolutely amazes me that no on carries them, I'm going to check a couple more of our smaller hardware stores, then just order a couple of them off the web.
                        No, it's not rocket science, it's plumbing and unlike rocket science it requires a license.

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                        • #27
                          Re: ok all you copper tubing experts...

                          I've asked for them too. Suppliers don't have them.

                          Reed makes a pencil reamer I've been meaning to order.

                          http://www.reedmfgco.com/index.html?...eburring_tools

                          http://www.plumbersurplus.com/Prod/Reed-DEBO-Deburring-Tool-Copper-Aluminum-Steel-(unlimited)-(4434)/108576/Cat/635

                          J.C.

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                          • #28
                            Re: ok all you copper tubing experts...

                            how available are replacement blades? or are they pretty brand interchangeable.

                            I'll have to order them online, the places listed in the "where to buy" tab for my area are all of the supply houses i've already called.
                            No, it's not rocket science, it's plumbing and unlike rocket science it requires a license.

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                            • #29
                              Re: ok all you copper tubing experts...

                              Don't know. Have to poke around and see if I can find the blades separately.

                              Their site lists that "3 spare blades in the handle give extra value". Leads one to believe that you get 4 blades in the purchase. (DEB3)

                              The second link is where you can buy the reamers if you missed it.

                              J.C.
                              Last edited by BobsPlumbing; 04-18-2009, 08:54 AM.

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                              • #30
                                Re: ok all you copper tubing experts...

                                I did see that, thank you. but after some searching of their site I don't see blades. I can get the lenox swivel reamer blades that go on the back of their smaller tubing cutters locally, I wonder if they'd fit.

                                seems like a reamer blade would be fairly universal.
                                No, it's not rocket science, it's plumbing and unlike rocket science it requires a license.

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