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  • OK, I've had enough

    Times are tough out there. So tough that a lot of long established plumbing companies are either laying off significant portions of their staff or closing the doors completely. Enrollment in plumbing apprentice classes is down better than 50% nation wide from a couple years ago. Salaries are down or frozen, benefits are hard to come by. A once proud and lucrative trade is slowly dying. So here we are on these DIY forums, freely giving advice and years of knowledge and experiance to homeowners, contractors, handymen, hell any schmuck thats asks us nicely. WHY? why in gods name are we so damn willing to sell out our trade and lively hood just so that we can stroke our ego's ? See me everyone. I'm so smart. I know all the answers. I'll lead you through your whole re-model for FREE. Well no more for me. The only thing anyone is getting from me on other forums is "call a professional" or humerous remarks. I for one am tired of sticking the knife into my own damn back. I've had this discussion with others before and those that defend their actions always give the same lame excuse. " They are going to do it anyway, so why not help them out" Know what? Probably right. But I would prefer to let them DIY and F*&% it all up so that one of us has to go in and fix it.
    sigpic

  • #2
    Re: OK, I've had enough

    Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
    Times are tough out there. So tough that a lot of long established plumbing companies are either laying off significant portions of their staff or closing the doors completely. Enrollment in plumbing apprentice classes is down better than 50% nation wide from a couple years ago. Salaries are down or frozen, benefits are hard to come by. A once proud and lucrative trade is slowly dying. So here we are on these DIY forums, freely giving advice and years of knowledge and experiance to homeowners, contractors, handymen, hell any schmuck thats asks us nicely. WHY? why in gods name are we so damn willing to sell out our trade and lively hood just so that we can stroke our ego's ? See me everyone. I'm so smart. I know all the answers. I'll lead you through your whole re-model for FREE. Well no more for me. The only thing anyone is getting from me on other forums is "call a professional" or humerous remarks. I for one am tired of sticking the knife into my own damn back. I've had this discussion with others before and those that defend their actions always give the same lame excuse. " They are going to do it anyway, so why not help them out" Know what? Probably right. But I would prefer to let them DIY and F*&% it all up so that one of us has to go in and fix it.

    well said....

    you forgot ego's.....
    sigpic

    Robert

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: OK, I've had enough

      This here site is lightweight compared to some d.i.y sites.

      Times aren't that hard. If they hired for the boom, well, they fire after the boom is over. Nothing new there. During a boom, anyone can make money. It takes a real businessperson to make it during normal times and these are very normal times.
      (The Low Spark of Steel-Toed Boys)

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: OK, I've had enough

        Originally posted by Drip Trip View Post
        This here site is lightweight compared to some d.i.y sites.

        Times aren't that hard. If they hired for the boom, well, they fire after the boom is over. Nothing new there. During a boom, anyone can make money. It takes a real businessperson to make it during normal times and these are very normal times.
        Maybe Way North times are normal. For most of the rest of the world things SUCK. Read the paper, watch the news.
        sigpic

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: OK, I've had enough

          I agree...I am still waiting for "my break."

          I just saw the other day (on Ridgid forum) some handyman asking for plumbing advice...get a license!

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: OK, I've had enough

            I hear you, but I've got a flip side for you to consider...

            We spent a lot of time looking over a sewer system for a condo complex last week, cameraring, locating, putting together a bid to replace the falling apart clay with pvc. It's a big job for us, the bid came out at about $25K, which is like 10% of our annual gross. It's messed up as the main line runs 5' deep 3' away from a swimming pool, and there is a lot of compact the hell out of it and pray the pool doesn't crack involved.

            Got a call from the property manager today. It's enough $ that the board will need him to put it out for bid, which is totally understandable. The cool part of it was that the call consisted of him apologetically telling me his position, and saying he'd like to buy our time for sussing it all out and putting together a plan so he can feel ok about putting it out for bid instead of letting another digger undercut us by a couple g's when we've done the work to find out what we're getting into.

            The more I put it out there, the more it comes back.
            This is my reminder to myself that no good will ever come from discussing politics or religion with anyone, ever.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: OK, I've had enough

              Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
              Maybe Way North times are normal. For most of the rest of the world things SUCK. Read the paper, watch the news.
              Everything is what it is at any given time, see? All you can do is be flexible enough to adjust to what the market is offering, see? That way, everything is normal.

              I didn't buy into the boom (well, once on a flip that netted cash), so I'm almost exactly the same as before the boom.

              Why would I watch t.v.? To listen to someone I don't know talk about things that don't concern me? I do read my local paper online to get upset at the local youth. Those freakin' kids should grow their hair long and smoke some dope, by golly! uhhhh...whatever. Light up and relax, man, everything is coool.
              (The Low Spark of Steel-Toed Boys)

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: OK, I've had enough

                The more I put it out there, the more it comes back.[/QUOTE]

                Sorry Ace but for every one of those customers ill bet you there are 50 or so that will happily parade your handywork around for a cheaper price.
                At least in this country anyway.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: OK, I've had enough

                  Originally posted by Ace Sewer View Post
                  I hear you, but I've got a flip side for you to consider...

                  We spent a lot of time looking over a sewer system for a condo complex last week, cameraring, locating, putting together a bid to replace the falling apart clay with pvc. It's a big job for us, the bid came out at about $25K, which is like 10% of our annual gross. It's messed up as the main line runs 5' deep 3' away from a swimming pool, and there is a lot of compact the hell out of it and pray the pool doesn't crack involved.

                  Got a call from the property manager today. It's enough $ that the board will need him to put it out for bid, which is totally understandable. The cool part of it was that the call consisted of him apologetically telling me his position, and saying he'd like to buy our time for sussing it all out and putting together a plan so he can feel ok about putting it out for bid instead of letting another digger undercut us by a couple g's when we've done the work to find out what we're getting into.

                  The more I put it out there, the more it comes back.


                  Maybe I missed it, but I would hope that the estimate with the camera equipment etc was a chargeable one.

                  There is no free estimates when you have to pull the sewer cameras out and complete that much work, a half day for free??


                  The only companies I know giving away free sewer cameras and other plumbing tasks are doing it as lost leaders and back the tasks up with high pressure sales.
                  sigpic

                  Robert

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: OK, I've had enough

                    I wanna hear PlumberRicks opinion on this subject

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: OK, I've had enough

                      Originally posted by OkieBill View Post
                      I wanna hear PlumberRicks opinion on this subject
                      this is not the first time this subject has come up.

                      i was actually sitting back on this so as not to stir the pot. even spoke to mark about this the other day. as you can see there are some that blame the diy and handymen for taking work away from them and then there are some like me and other that just accept it as reality.

                      guys we can go back and forth here all day, week, month, year long.

                      i rarely discuss politics here on the forum as this is not a political forum. it's a forum that's sponsored by ridgid. ridgid sells tools to both us the professional and the diy market.

                      i have chased, or advised others that don't want to participate in the forum discussion to either not reply or go to another forum just for pros.

                      personally a pros only forum would get old without the interaction of the non pro.

                      honestly, why do the ones that complain about helping the diy/ handyman even bother coming here? there are plenty of forums that cater to pros only. in fact many that are complaining are on those forums too. some even post the identical questions here and there

                      we can go round and round.

                      guys times were ruff when i started full time in 1981. but blaming it on others is not the answer. you really need to look at your business and see if it's worth being in business for yourself. it took me till 1997 before i went into business for myself. and remember i had started part time in the trade in 1975.

                      not everyone is going to seceded in business. just look at all the failed food joints. all the failed chain stores. car dealers, car makers. sure times are tougher than a few years ago. but there will always be a need for skilled and licensed plumbers.

                      the only reason i responded is because i was asked by okibill.
                      but then again, most of you already knew my feelings on this subject.

                      i will not respond to this thread again, but i will continue to read what others are writing. sorry, but i wasn't going to respond originally.

                      thanks.

                      rick.
                      phoebe it is

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: OK, I've had enough

                        i was actually sitting back on this so as not to stir the pot. even spoke to mark about this the other day. as you can see there are some that blame the diy and handymen for taking work away from them and then there are some like me and other that just accept it as reality.

                        Why "accept it as reality" Why not try and do something about it? Accepting things is what had drivent the trade to where it is.

                        guys we can go back and forth here all day, week, month, year long.

                        That would be a good thing. This subject is valid and important and should be debated.

                        i rarely discuss politics here on the forum as this is not a political forum. it's a forum that's sponsored by ridgid. ridgid sells tools to both us the professional and the diy market.

                        So that means that Pros, posting in the pro's section should not express their opinions?

                        i have chased, or advised others that don't want to participate in the forum discussion to either not reply or go to another forum just for pros.

                        Yes, you have. Wonder why a good number of them now hang at PZ ?

                        personally a pros only forum would get old without the interaction of the non pro.

                        Not actually, it never gets boring there are plenty of issues to debate and a lot of good advice from one pro to another. Check out the latest stat's

                        honestly, why do the ones that complain about helping the diy/ handyman even bother coming here? there are plenty of forums that cater to pros only. in fact many that are complaining are on those forums too. some even post the identical questions here and there

                        Because this forum and others like it are a place to reach other Plumbers and hopefully educate them.

                        we can go round and round.

                        guys times were ruff when i started full time in 1981. but blaming it on others is not the answer. you really need to look at your business and see if it's worth being in business for yourself. it took me till 1997 before i went into business for myself. and remember i had started part time in the trade in 1975.

                        not everyone is going to seceded in business. just look at all the failed food joints. all the failed chain stores. car dealers, car makers. sure times are tougher than a few years ago. but there will always be a need for skilled and licensed plumbers.

                        Nobody is blaming anything on anybody. What we are trying to do is open some eyes to the problems in the industry. It is not one single issue but rather an entire collection of issues and years and years of apathy and neglect by the trade and the industry. I hope your business is doing well, it is a testimate to your skill as a plumber and a business man, but if the economy continues to crash it will only be a matter of time before it effects your business too. We all have a duty to protect the health of the public and to protect our trade. If you have proof that advising homeowners protects either than by all means post it. There is a huge difference between DIY for almost any other task. The difference is that changing a light fixture does not hold the potential for harming the rest of the community. Improperly tying into the water supply or DWV system does. And since any advice given can not guarantee that the reciepiant fully understands it or will do it the right way, what are you accomplishing?

                        the only reason i responded is because i was asked by okibill.
                        but then again, most of you already knew my feelings on this subject.

                        I do know your feelings and believe it or not I respect them. Don't agree with them, but I do respect them.
                        Last edited by NHMaster3015; 07-31-2009, 08:40 AM.
                        sigpic

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: OK, I've had enough

                          This is a great topic

                          I to have expressed my opinion on this subject and we have all gone a few rounds about it in the past.

                          So far it has not turned into a flame war so I will keep talking...

                          Ridgid is our host here and it is in their best financial interests to support the DIY'er and the plumbing pro. That is why each has their own section on the forum otherwise they will become made in China. ( sorry a bit off topic)

                          I am a new plumbing / HVAC company (second year) and it is a struggle. To grab the helm and control your own destiny is thrilling and the biggest fear I have ever felt...

                          Some weeks leaky faucets and fluidmasters are all there is to pay the bills... I'm thankfull for the phone to ring.

                          Knowing there are good plumbers struggling just like me how could I take that phone call away from them... I will not, so I choose to stay out of the "Ask the experts" section.

                          Remember that how business were established in the 1980's and 90's is not the same world that plumbers today are trying to establish themselves in. You had the benefit of growing in the world without the DIY / Internet craze. This allowed you to afford the tools to expand your task base and in-turn continue to grow through adversity.

                          I will get there but the journey is going to be that much tuffer because the simpler calls and some of the tuffer ones are being walked through on the internet...

                          No longer are we simply in competion with the guys in the phone book, This information age now places me in competion with plumbers across the country except the scales are not equal when the advice by internet is despensed for free because the plumbers responding are not thinking of the the call they are taking away from someone.... They do not believe there is a consequence for there action.

                          The advice given is not free and it does cost real people there livleyhoods though through a computer it is tuff to see...

                          Bill

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: OK, I've had enough

                            Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post

                            honestly, why do the ones that complain about helping the diy/ handyman even bother coming here? there are plenty of forums that cater to pros only.


                            rick.

                            Rick,

                            Not trying to "break your balls" but I do see some "bias" here...

                            You bitched about the "supply house" and DIYERS.........

                            So which is it?

                            Had a confrontation with a diy BY Plumber Rick

                            http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21909


                            So..................

                            It's OK if you complain........But not us......

                            Still love you buddy and RESPECT YOU A LOT......just A "DISCUSSION" that's all

                            By your post below, You can see you were clearly upset when you got to the supply house........did that DIYER have Ridgid tools ;-) J/K


                            Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                            so for those who think i give advise to just anyone, think again

                            i was at a supply house today and a homeowner or handyman with his son was buying a tankless heater and 20' of csst/ tract pipe.

                            the girl behind the counter had cut the pipe with a burr on 1 end. the customer asked how to fix it so it's smooth.

                            guess what the counter girl turns to me for advise

                            i actually lectured the counter girl and the homeowner on the fact that this product is suppose to be sold to licensed installers only

                            i gave no advise other than there's a reason why it's sold to trained and licensed pros only.

                            i went as far as calling the corporate office as the branch manager was out to lunch. still waiting for a response from corporate.


                            even called mark for his input

                            then later in the day i spoke to the branch manager and pleaded my case.
                            of course with sales way down at the branch, they are happy to sell to anyone, licensed or not licensed

                            i continued with my reasoning and he actually saw it my way

                            there will be no more sales of csst to anyone without a license and certification

                            duckbutter should be smiling

                            rick.
                            Last edited by PlumbingSkool; 07-31-2009, 11:48 AM.
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                            • #15
                              Re: OK, I've had enough

                              I have pointed this out before, yes the Internet is a recently new tool,

                              but the DIY has been there from the dawn of time and ever since the printing press there more than likely has been DIY guides in print,

                              some were for the professional as well as the home owner,

                              I am sure this discussion was taking place in 1950 as the post war boom was taking place,

                              I had a few titles of books written in that time period, one is how to build your own home for $3500, and Aedel's books had many on plumbing and construction goes back to at lest the 1920's, I have another book titled, "Armature Builders Handbook", the all show how to lead CI and the basics of how to do the entire building from foundation to the final plumbing, and most everything in between,

                              here is a Ebay auction of a 1947 set of "Plumbers and Steam Fitters Guide"
                              http://cgi.ebay.com/AUDELS-Plumbers-...3286.m20.l1116
                              libraries were and are full of how to sections,

                              this is not new, it has been going on since the beginning of time,
                              Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                              "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
                              attributed to Samuel Johnson
                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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