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  • #31
    Re: Let's Get Crazy...

    Okay to save everyone some trouble I have some rough numbers. PEX is measured in CTS-OD which means the area of 3/8" PEX is less than .20 of an inch. Here is the area of the copper pipe the system is available in.

    1" = .78
    1 1/4" = 1.13
    1 1/2" = 1.77
    2" = 3.14

    So unless you are you sizing your risers to their maximum I don't see there being a problem.

    Now for expansion, for every 100 degrees of temperature change there is 1.1 inches of expansion of every 100' of PEX. As the system is limited to 6-stories we are talking closer to .66 inches of expansion for every 100 degrees of change. If the system was installed in Southern California at 70 degrees the maximum expansion would be .33 of an inch plus whatever slop the installer builds into the system.

    While using Google it appears this system has been in use in the US for at least 18-months. While that is not a long time, the idea of shell and tube is an old and proven method. I don't know enough about the system yet to be sold on it. I do know enough about the design ideas to be impressed.

    Mark

    Disclaimer: My math is approximate but close enough for a first review.
    Last edited by ToUtahNow; 11-01-2009, 05:11 PM. Reason: math correction
    "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

    I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

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    • #32
      Re: Let's Get Crazy...

      Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
      Okay to save everyone some trouble I have some rough numbers. PEX is measured in CTS-OD which means the area of 3/8" PEX is less than .20 of an inch. Here is the area of the copper pipe the system is available in.

      1" = .78
      1 1/4" = 1.13
      1 1/2" = 1.77
      2" = 3.14

      So unless you are you sizing your risers to their maximum I don't see there being a problem.

      Now for expansion, for every 100 degrees of temperature change there is 1.1 inches of expansion of every 100' of PEX. As the system is limited to 6-stories we are talking closer to .66 inches of expansion for every 100 degrees of change. If the system was installed in Southern California at 70 degrees the maximum expansion would be .33 of an inch plus whatever slop the installer builds into the system.

      While using Google it appears this system has been in use in the US for at least 18-months. While that is not a long time, the idea of shell and tube is an old and proven method. I don't know enough about the system yet to be sold on it. I do know enough about the design ideas to be impressed.

      Mark

      Disclaimer: My math is approximate but close enough for a first review.

      Very nice informative post Mark, thank you.

      Because the copper pipe is sized larger and more than compensates for the required water sizing there is zero restriction as pertaining to water sizing tables and is in no way a lie when Viega says there are zero restrictions. The expansion in this set up is not an issue, they are well within the required parameters.
      I'm pretty sure the engineers at Viega know what they're doing. Viega pex, solid bronze fittings, stainless steel sleeves and propress fittings, an extremely high quality combination.
      Now throw in a new Ridgid Propress gun and you're in business.

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      • #33
        Re: Let's Get Crazy...

        Originally posted by ironranger View Post
        Very nice informative post Mark, thank you.

        Because the copper pipe is sized larger and more than compensates for the required water sizing there is zero restriction as pertaining to water sizing tables and is in no way a lie when Viega says there are zero restrictions. The expansion in this set up is not an issue, they are well within the required parameters.
        I'm pretty sure the engineers at Viega know what they're doing. Viega pex, solid bronze fittings, stainless steel sleeves and propress fittings, an extremely high quality combination.
        Now throw in a new Ridgid Propress gun and you're in business.
        Respectfully, all that about sizing tables, volume required, psi, velocity rate etc. etc. etc. is all fine.

        Saying something installed internally into a supply has no restriction is incorrect or a lie. I invite anyone to prove that installing something internally into a line does not cause any % restriction or obstruction.

        That does not mean the engineers at Viega don't know what they are doing. Surely they do but they are also human. I'm very familiar with their product line, use it, and still have things to learn.

        Why else was I able to find the video representation and post it for discussion?

        J.C.

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        • #34
          Re: Let's Get Crazy...

          Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
          Respectfully, all that about sizing tables, volume required, psi, velocity rate etc. etc. etc. is all fine.

          Saying something installed internally into a supply has no restriction is incorrect or a lie. I invite anyone to prove that installing something internally into a line does not cause any % restriction or obstruction.

          That does not mean the engineers at Viega don't know what they are doing. Surely they do but they are also human. I'm very familiar with their product line, use it, and still have things to learn.

          Why else was I able to find the video representation and post it for discussion?

          J.C.
          If you're looking at the restriction in that sense then I guess there is no argument. I think what they meant is there is no restriction in flow, volume, etc. when talking about properly sizing your system. Six of one half dozen of another I guess. I'm always learning too, keeps me motivated.

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          • #35
            Re: Let's Get Crazy...

            It seems the trick is to subtract the area of the 3/8" PEX when sizing your risers as you loose about 20% of your GPM. However, look what you are picking up. You would have less heat loss in your loop. You would also save the cost of running a parallel pipe and fittings for the recirc line along with penetrations, fire stopping, hanging and insulating.

            Mark
            "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

            I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Let's Get Crazy...

              A loose tube inside a pipe.
              No Way Am I Going For This One.

              NO WAY

              How do you propose to keep this cheap tube from obstructing the branch's volume needs.Now you want to oversize it as well.
              Velocity What???
              Erosion?

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Let's Get Crazy... LET'S GET STUPID!

                Originally posted by drtyhands View Post
                A loose tube inside a pipe.
                No Way Am I Going For This One.

                NO WAY

                How do you propose to keep this cheap tube from obstructing the branch's volume needs.Now you want to oversize it as well.
                Velocity What???
                Erosion?
                I agree Adam. It just seems so unnatural to have anything but water in My pipes! It looks repulsive! And while I'm at it,I don't give a **** what anyone does in Europe. Next idiot that makes that statement is getting His *** kicked! RANT OVER
                I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

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                • #38
                  Re: Let's Get Crazy... LET'S GET STUPID!

                  Originally posted by toolaholic View Post
                  I agree Adam. It just seems so unnatural to have anything but water in My pipes! It looks repulsive! And while I'm at it,I don't give a **** what anyone does in Europe. Next idiot that makes that statement is getting His *** kicked! RANT OVER
                  Yeah, I've seen some garbage from Europe. Watched one junk plastic system from Germany on video. Can't recall the company.

                  "Europe" has little validation in my book. I'm familiar with their years of use for some products but am unfamiliar with water quality, pressures, uses, volumes etc.

                  Hard to get a close comparison yet.

                  J.C.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Let's Get Crazy...

                    This thread got fun while I was at work. lol


                    If that tube inside that pipe inside was a metallic piping, I wouldn't have such issue with.

                    But I saw the pipe within and how easy those ports can close up.



                    Anyone want to give us the price for that system for a 6 story building? Pretty expensive I would imagine.
                    Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

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                    • #40
                      Re: Let's Get Crazy...

                      Originally posted by DUNBAR View Post
                      This thread got fun while I was at work. lol


                      If that tube inside that pipe inside was a metallic piping, I wouldn't have such issue with.

                      But I saw the pipe within and how easy those ports can close up.



                      Anyone want to give us the price for that system for a 6 story building? Pretty expensive I would imagine.
                      Heck, it's just 4 pieces and some pipe.

                      J.C.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Let's Get Crazy...

                        `you need to plan for this type of installation during the initial installation.

                        of course a straight riser with proper tees are essential.

                        but then again if i had a 6 story building with a heater below, i wouldn't need a pump.

                        the water would circulate by itself due to the specific gravity of hot and cold water.

                        i have more than i1 building i've disconnected or turned off the pump on that work just fine. they now rarely develop any pinhole leaks.

                        rick.
                        phoebe it is

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                        • #42
                          Re: Let's Get Crazy... STUPID

                          Two things i want in my pipes! Clean water in one crap in the other!
                          I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

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                          • #43
                            Re: Let's Get Crazy...

                            Originally posted by DUNBAR View Post
                            This thread got fun while I was at work. lol


                            If that tube inside that pipe inside was a metallic piping, I wouldn't have such issue with.

                            But I saw the pipe within and how easy those ports can close up.



                            Anyone want to give us the price for that system for a 6 story building? Pretty expensive I would imagine.

                            Nope, half the cost of running a seperate copper line, insulation, labor, etc.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Let's Get Crazy...

                              Don't forget to amortize that $2,000.00 pro press tool in there also.
                              sigpic

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                              • #45
                                Re: Let's Get Crazy...

                                Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                                Don't forget to amortize that $2,000.00 pro press tool in there also.
                                My Propress tool has paid for itself more times than I could ever count already and I'm sure that anyone else using it would say the same thing. The train has left the station and it's a one way trip, never going back.

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