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  • #16
    Re: Statement from Plumbing Supply House Today

    I am reading lots of reasonable arguments on both sides of this. What I still don't like is that our wholesales have become nothing more than competition with big box stores a lot of the time.When my wife worked in the floral wholesale business, the only persons that were permited to purchase from them was liscenced floral business. If anyone walked in off the street and tried to make a purchase it was denied. If a sale was made and the local business found out they would as a group stop business with that wholesale. They used their power as a group to keep the wholesale as just that, a supplier to retailers. Can our trade take a lesson from this or will we continue to be so competetive that we cannot see the power we might have to make some changes as a group?
    Most wholesales have showrooms that joe homeowner can use to purchase fixtures etc. and this is as close as they should be allowed to get to the supply house and if not purchasing through a contractor should be charged full retail.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Statement from Plumbing Supply House Today

      Originally posted by BHD View Post
      http://www.epatest.com/608/
      go to this site and with $25 you can be certified to buy your freon, and the study materials and study software are there too for free.
      and the test can be taken open book.

      Read the rules very carefully on this one:-) Type 1 is not to "buy your freon"... ( I have held a Universal License since 1994) The licenses determine what equipment by law you can work on.

      I know my supply house will not sell to a Type 1 card holder simply to protect the stupid folks who try this from themselves.

      A Warning: I promise you the EPA has a set of teeth when it comes to these rules so follow this bad advice at your peril.

      I wonder if there was a reason the government got involved in the trades in the first place... Could it be because know it alls were killing themselves and others with there unregulated stupidity.

      I agree that over regulation is bad but if not for government intervention who would protect the general public from the "I don't need a license", I can do it on common sense BHD's of the world???

      Last edited by OkieBill; 12-06-2009, 12:48 AM.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Statement from Plumbing Supply House Today

        You know whose to blame for wholesalers selling their goods to John Q Public.........plumbers that's who. I can only speak to my customer base but I suspect this was the case nationally.

        We had a hard and fast rule at my company that we only sold wholesale to licensed plumbing contractors. We wouldn't even sell to their employees who were doing jobs on the side. Some of our competition however would sell to anyone off the street yet the plumbers continued to give them orders. Finally, we got sick and tired of hearing plumbing contractors complain about competitor A or B selling to the public while still flooding them with orders that we decided that they might as well be complaining about us also.

        In our case at least, we were the loyal ones and it was the plumbers that defected first. Our reward for being loyal was to loose orders to other wholesalers who weren't so loyal to their customer base. If the plumbing contractors would have stopped giving orders to the offending wholesales years ago when this trend started there probably wouldn't be many wholesalers around today selling to the public.
        Teach your kids about taxes..........eat 30 percent of their ice cream.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Statement from Plumbing Supply House Today

          I did not say one should not have a license if it is required by law,
          I do think there should be some regulations on and behalf of public safety,

          What I do not like is to regulations for the sake of revenue enhancement to the Government,

          In my area there are no inspectors, and few county rules, The main reason is that people have basic integrity to do the job basically correctly. there has not been a basic need for some one to look for the shister or the crook,

          Dunbar stated that he as seen his share of non compliant work by licensed trades,
          How many times have you had or heard of inspectors not doing their job, or so totally under qualified it was just a joke,

          I do believe in personal property rights tho, and if some one wants to work on his own property (right or wrong in process) then he should be able to do it, for his own use, and yes it should be done correctly.

          now I have some problems with house flippers, as the reality is is not for them selfs, It should be done correctly. but for some one to do there own repairs I have no problems with. or even a major construction project.

          but in the discussion of part houses selling to individuals, most likely the challenge in competing with the box stores, and regardless of what you think or want they need to keep there doors open as well, and if selling to the public makes the difference then they do it, if there is not laws and rules against it.

          Why I posted the EPA site was that many systems and licenses are many times not much more than a piece of paper, (If you choose to get a EPA 609 class I license follow the law in the handling of the refrigerants, and the items you choose to work on).

          I know my state license on wast and water treatment (which I passed the test on) would have been given to me even if I would have failed the test, by that states law as I was hired to run the system and the system operator had to be licensed so if you could not pass the test you were rewarded one any after three trys.

          But I do not believe that every thing needs Government intervention or over site,

          IF it was truly for public safety, and not revenue enhancements for some govermental agency, and then introducing others factors into the equations that is revenue generating for private companies, via governmental process.

          who makes the rules, who profit by the rule changes, who approves the new products, who prints and sell the code books, (if it is government rules, why is not the code books avable from the government printing office for cost of printing).
          Last edited by BHD; 12-06-2009, 03:56 PM.
          Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
          attributed to Samuel Johnson
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Statement from Plumbing Supply House Today

            I think some are bothered more about any effects to their bottom line and livelihood than someone doing their own things.

            J.C.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Statement from Plumbing Supply House Today

              In my hometown, the only place to buy any plumbing supplies was the local supply house. There were no Home Depot, Lowes, or full line hardware stores within an hour's drive. If we needed a piece of pipe, faucet, or whatever, it came from them of required a road trip. I imagine the professionals got a better price than the homeowner.
              Steve
              www.MorrisGarage.com

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Statement from Plumbing Supply House Today

                Something really bothers me about this discussion.

                I respect the experience and study that a professional tradesman puts into his craft. I also respect that it's damn hard work. When someone hires you, they're hiring BOTH your knowledge AND the actual time and effort it takes to do the work.

                But, to be clear -- this does not mean that you "own" the trade. Your license means that you have earned the privilege of being able to hire out your services. Yes, I said privilege. My education similarly grants me the privilege of being able to hire out my craft. No difference.

                Or maybe YOU shouldn't be able to buy aluminum, steel, wood, concrete... or a calculator or a computer? No telling what havoc you might reap with those things. Sheesh.

                On the other hand, I have the RIGHT to work on my own property, as long as I respect the law (code, permits, etc). You are suggesting that I should lose my RIGHTS so that your PRIVILEGE can become your RIGHT? Well, not without a fight.

                Your business is no different than any other. You have to work in an area where the market needs your services and you have to present a value to the customer that is competitive so that he/she will choose you over the other options. You can either do this or you can't. My being able to buy parts has nothing to do with it. Not meaning to be harsh but this is the same exact challenge everyone in every line of work faces.

                I do not disrespect you, far, far from it. When I need you, I will call and I will appreciate your efforts. But there are many things that I can do just fine, and I'll keep doing them.

                This is still the United States.... land of the free.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Statement from Plumbing Supply House Today

                  Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
                  Something really bothers me about this discussion.....
                  Your business is no different than any other. You have to work in an area where the market needs your services and you have to present a value to the customer that is competitive so that he/she will choose you over the other options. You can either do this or you can't. My being able to buy parts has nothing to do with it. Not meaning to be harsh but this is the same exact challenge everyone in every line of work faces....
                  I share your annoyance.

                  DIYs have never been my customer, even more so now. Plumbers are a luxury service for people who can afford it. My ads target those people, too. If you can't afford me, do NOT call. I do NOT care.

                  I can totally afford to hire out all the jobs that my property requires, freeing me to make money doing services for the people who can totally afford me. But if I couldn't afford to hire painters or carpenters or flooring, I would get me down to the store and do it.
                  (The Low Spark of Steel-Toed Boys)

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Statement from Plumbing Supply House Today

                    I'm not opposed to change, just critical of it. The big picture says to me that it's dismantling my country. I have a problem with that.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Statement from Plumbing Supply House Today

                      I have a different spin on this topic. I do not care where the client purchases thier product.I can convince 70% of those clients into owning my product. The other thirty percent pay my price and that covers my lost markup on that certain fixture.

                      During the 70's when building was hit by that recession I watched the exact same thing happen with the wholesalers.

                      My father had a wholesale business in Ohio what he found in the 70's he could stock less mechandise and sell it at a higher mark up giving him a better profit margin selling one water closet to a home owner than he could selling 24 water closets to a plumber. Then wait 90 days to get paid. It is understandable that they would sell to the public especially since new construction is down and that means total sales are down.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Statement from Plumbing Supply House Today

                        In some rural areas a supply house could not survive without non-plumber sales. Now with this economy some supply houses in urban areas are finding the same thing. They have lost most if not all of the new construction sales which is their money maker. As most of you know, their service plumbers are also seeing a drop in sales. Some supply house are moving into survival mode by allowing non-plumber sales.

                        The only hold a plumber has ever had at controlling non-plumber sales at supply houses is to not buy from supply house which sell to non-plumbers. Now the problem is if your supply houses start closing down where are you going to buy your supplies, Home Depot? There is no question things are a mess and getting worse. Change is coming.

                        Mark
                        "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                        I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Statement from Plumbing Supply House Today

                          Preventing people from buying plumbing parts, whether the homeowner or unlicensed plumber, is not going to prevent them from attempting the repairs anyway. They will just substitute rubber hose for plastic pipe and fittings and hose clamps or duct tape for glue and primer.
                          My plate is full with people that don't know which end of the screwdriver to use but they want the job done right with quality parts.
                          "Man will do many things to get himself loved, he will do all things to get himself envied." Mark Twain

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Statement from Plumbing Supply House Today

                            So with your reasoning I have the right to practice medicine in my own home on my own family? I do watch "House" and many other medical type shows, I guess I could perform some of the surgery's we see on TV. Thing is yes I could probably give myself stitches and even my daughter. You know what stops me? The fact its not very safe for me to do such things, we pay the doctors for their training, and having the right tools and equipment.

                            Heck I can not even represent our company in a court of law, we have to hire a lawyer. My father tried to represent our company in the court, the judge and the advertising company's lawyers both said we have to hire a corporate lawyer. Why is that? Maybe because we do not know the ins and outs of the laws, how to properly file the papers and other things. Heck we can read the books on the law and learn how to file the right papers and motions and affidavits, but they do not want this for our protection and not to waste the courts time.

                            I was an apprentice for 5 years and went to school for plumbing for 5 years as well. I went down state took a practical and a written test to get my license to perform plumbing. Plumbers learn the code not just to earn a living, but to protect the health of the nation. If you make a mistake in how you plumb your home, it might not just affect you and your family, you can get your whole community sick. And if you are on a private well and think that if you have a cross connection it only affects you, you are dead wrong! Other people in your area pump from the same aquifer.

                            What honestly bothers me is lots of the stuff that DIY'ers do requires a permit but they think like you "I have the RIGHT to work on my own property..." They say they do not need a permit They know how to put togather platic pipes, they can replace their p- trap and so on. Here are some pictures of what people think they can do but are very wrong.
















                            Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
                            Something really bothers me about this discussion.

                            I respect the experience and study that a professional tradesman puts into his craft. I also respect that it's damn hard work. When someone hires you, they're hiring BOTH your knowledge AND the actual time and effort it takes to do the work.

                            But, to be clear -- this does not mean that you "own" the trade. Your license means that you have earned the privilege of being able to hire out your services. Yes, I said privilege. My education similarly grants me the privilege of being able to hire out my craft. No difference.

                            Or maybe YOU shouldn't be able to buy aluminum, steel, wood, concrete... or a calculator or a computer? No telling what havoc you might reap with those things. Sheesh.

                            On the other hand, I have the RIGHT to work on my own property, as long as I respect the law (code, permits, etc). You are suggesting that I should lose my RIGHTS so that your PRIVILEGE can become your RIGHT? Well, not without a fight.

                            Your business is no different than any other. You have to work in an area where the market needs your services and you have to present a value to the customer that is competitive so that he/she will choose you over the other options. You can either do this or you can't. My being able to buy parts has nothing to do with it. Not meaning to be harsh but this is the same exact challenge everyone in every line of work faces.

                            I do not disrespect you, far, far from it. When I need you, I will call and I will appreciate your efforts. But there are many things that I can do just fine, and I'll keep doing them.

                            This is still the United States.... land of the free.
                            Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
                            A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
                            Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
                            Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Statement from Plumbing Supply House Today

                              Did work at a well known bank in my area...


                              "Extremely slow for this time of the year."



                              Everything is dragging to a halt in my area. I'm going to drum
                              up some beater jobs in the next couple days just to call myself
                              a plumber!


                              Tomorrow we have 70mph winds coming so I won't mind staying off
                              the roads tomorrow.
                              Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Statement from Plumbing Supply House Today

                                Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                                In some rural areas a supply house could not survive without non-plumber sales. Now with this economy some supply houses in urban areas are finding the same thing. They have lost most if not all of the new construction sales which is their money maker. As most of you know, their service plumbers are also seeing a drop in sales. Some supply house are moving into survival mode by allowing non-plumber sales.

                                The only hold a plumber has ever had at controlling non-plumber sales at supply houses is to not buy from supply house which sell to non-plumbers. Now the problem is if your supply houses start closing down where are you going to buy your supplies, Home Depot? There is no question things are a mess and getting worse. Change is coming.

                                Mark
                                The supply house I use all the time closed on friday, I was the last customer...picking up a last minute tankless water heater. Now I have to find another supplier, not much to chose from when you live in a remote area.
                                The Other Rick

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