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Statement from Plumbing Supply House Today

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  • #31
    Re: Statement from Plumbing Supply House Today

    Originally posted by BHD View Post
    are you going to carry that to car parts, you need a mechanic to put in your new battery?

    how about groceries, they have trained chefs, why should some one be able to cook for them selfs to save a buck, some of these persons have gone to Paris to learn how to cook.

    and choosing what you eat, there are licensed dietitians and nutritious,

    Why you should not be able to figure out how to put in a bath room as there are licensed plumbing engineers and architects.

    You should only follow some one else plans, and specifications,

    You should not be able to think for your self, the horror of it,
    some one being able to think and to do some thing on there own with out a Nanny state looking over there shoulder.
    First of all, yes. I am all for mechanics being the only person being able to install a battery. But if that is going in effect, no one better be able to install plumbing, but plumbers. Bothers me not.

    Truth be told, I am not a ninja with car electrical systems, I could possibly F my car up from a badly installed battery. So ya, that is cool with me.

    And cooking my own food has nothing to do with the topic. Maybe that trained dietery person should feed it to me to?

    You have some sort of conspiracy theory complex. you made this alot more complex, with fail examples, than it is.

    There are people that flip burgers, and didn't go to ANY schooling, or put in ANY kinda apprentiship or anything like it. The government, state or federal, does not REQUIRE THEM to go through a minimum of 3 years apprentiship, then get liscensed.

    My homeowners pick out their fixtures ALL THE TIME BRO. I install them. See the difference? PM me and I will explain it to you so you don't get embarrassed.

    NO ONE SHOULD INSTALL PLUMBING BUT PLUMBERS.
    You disagree? Why?

    NO ONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO BUY PLUMBING PARTS BUT PLUMBERS.
    We safe guard the public. We install these parts, to prevent property damage, and prevent adverse conditions that would contaminate the drinking water. And more importantly, to protect. Protect people from their own ignorance.

    Ohhh joe blow homeowner bought a new water heater, and capped off the T&P valve. Thought it could possibly drip one day, so he went ahead and stopped that.

    Since he can just go out and buy a water heater, and a 3/4 nipple/cap, he just endangered the lives of ANYONE in that house. But hey, screw it. That is cool, because we should let him think for himself. GOD FORBID the government step in and tell him what to do , AMIRITE?

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Statement from Plumbing Supply House Today

      most supply house have a minimum $$ amount. this tends to keep out the nickle and dime people that should be going to a hardware store.

      what bothers me is the fact that the supply house will sell products that require a separate license to purchase, such as csst, hdpe, pex. this holds true to the plumbers that haven't taken the time to get the license too.

      if the supply house doesn't enforce the laws/ rules, the inspectors certainly don't.

      hardware stores have access to 95% of what the supply house have access to. in fact they tend to have a much better supply to the repair parts, and nickel and dime parts.

      there is a need for both the wholesaler and retailer.

      1 place i buy appliance parts from has 2 counters and separate pricing. the trade always comes first and the walk in customer is served when the trade has been taken care of.

      rick.
      phoebe it is

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Statement from Plumbing Supply House Today

        Originally posted by SewerRatz View Post
        So with your reasoning I have the right to practice medicine in my own home on my own family? I do watch "House" and many other medical type shows, I guess I could perform some of the surgery's we see on TV. Thing is yes I could probably give myself stitches and even my daughter. You know what stops me? The fact its not very safe for me to do such things, we pay the doctors for their training, and having the right tools and equipment.

        Heck I can not even represent our company in a court of law, we have to hire a lawyer. My father tried to represent our company in the court, the judge and the advertising company's lawyers both said we have to hire a corporate lawyer. Why is that? Maybe because we do not know the ins and outs of the laws, how to properly file the papers and other things. Heck we can read the books on the law and learn how to file the right papers and motions and affidavits, but they do not want this for our protection and not to waste the courts time.

        I was an apprentice for 5 years and went to school for plumbing for 5 years as well. I went down state took a practical and a written test to get my license to perform plumbing. Plumbers learn the code not just to earn a living, but to protect the health of the nation. If you make a mistake in how you plumb your home, it might not just affect you and your family, you can get your whole community sick. And if you are on a private well and think that if you have a cross connection it only affects you, you are dead wrong! Other people in your area pump from the same aquifer.

        What honestly bothers me is lots of the stuff that DIY'ers do requires a permit but they think like you "I have the RIGHT to work on my own property..." They say they do not need a permit They know how to put togather platic pipes, they can replace their p- trap and so on. Here are some pictures of what people think they can do but are very wrong.












        Your examples are scary, that's for sure.

        But what about the huge number of projects that are done very well? A homeowner can take a lot more time on a job than a pro can afford to take. If he's competent, then the job may well turn out as good or maybe once in a while even better.

        And let's not forget the number of inept "professionals" out there. Some of us would rather do some research and do the job rather than pay big money to get a crappy job. And that does happen.

        Fact is, you do practice medicine at home. Ever take an over the counter medication? Did you know that if you take too many aspirin you could bleed to death? Or too many Advils will destroy your liver? Maybe those should be prescription-only.

        You can also do many legal matters - wills, divorces, trusts, even patents - yourself. And you CAN represent yourself in court. But the judge has to agree that it's in your best interest to do so.

        As I see it, you can't legislate stupidity out of society. If you try to, you'll just encourage new and creative ways for people to screw up. If someone is going to cap off his T&P valve because it's dripping... well, that's a shame but he'll find a cap somewhere. If you could enjoin homeowners from buying plumbing supplies (really a moot point - never gonna happen) the photos you showed would get more common and even worse as people were forced to jerry rig their repairs. That's not in anybody's interest.

        Instead we have a system of codes and permits and inspections. Seems to me like a good system - effective but not onerous or draconian (our gas and electric company here, PG&E, is draconian!!) Yes, some people will skirt the system. I don't think giving up my rights is an appropriate way to tackle that problem.

        By the way, I don't just *think* it's my right to work on my home -- it IS my right. I have the right UNTIL there is a law on the books that says I am not to work on my plumbing. It is my right, as long as I follow the code and permit regulations and get the inspections where required.

        Honestly, if you're worried about public safety I would be much more concerned about some moron working at the local fast food joint not washing his hands after using the john than I would be about my plumbing. For example.... I not only have approved backflow devices on my system, I also have the test set so that I can check 'em a couple of times per year.

        I know you're hearts are in the right place but the arguments about protecting us from ourselves are weak. With freedom comes responsibility. If you want to make things safer, lobby for better code enforcement. Or lobby for better education. But many of us are fully capable of changing a water heater or installing and venting a drain.

        I do think that the supply houses should give better pricing to pros. I get my plumbing at Home Depot but I get electrical stuff at the supplier... I pay the same price as the electricians... which I know isn't fair, but I'm not complaining. They have all the condulets and other odd stuff that H-D & Lowe's don't, and they're cheaper than HD & Lowe's to boot.

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Statement from Plumbing Supply House Today

          Well my point is most DIY types do not get a permit. A lot of areas require a permit for something as simple as changing a fixture, like a water closet. There are lots of plumbers that say they do not mind if a home owner does their own plumbing, because sooner or later they will be calling the plumber to make corrections.

          I had two jobs recently where the city told the home owners they MUST hire a plumber to make the corrections to the plumbing they had done.

          First one was a home a nice young lady bought, and her boyfriend took out a wall in the basement bathroom and moved it further into the utility room, then installed a shower and re-plumbed the utility sink. He also installed a new water heater. Now the trouble is he did not vent the utility sink and shower, plus the water heater was installed with parts that are not allowed by the Illinois plumbing code. Also a strike against them was no permit, and this city requires all plumbing repairs and modifications to be done by a licensed plumber. I had to bust open the floor and re-plumb the drains so they would be properly vented and re-plumb the water heater to meet the code.

          Second job was a fire restoration, the home owner and the GC put on the permit the home owner was going to do the minor plumbing repairs. IE replace melted PVC p-traps and such. Well the plumbing they did, did not meet code, they gave them 3 chances to make it meet code, then they told them to hire a plumber to make the corrections and verify the rest of the plumbing meets code.

          Now for Illinois the state code does say a home owner is allowed to make minor repairs to their plumbing system. Anything else they must hire a licensed plumber. Kind of like when we get cut and a simple bandage can do the job to stop the bleeding, all is good. But lets say the cut is much deeper and I tagged a vein, well I need to hire a doctor to fix me up. Same goes for plumbing.

          I do agree with you that there are some really inept "professionals" every trade has them. One of the biggest problems we have in the plumbing industry is there are "Handy men" that call themselves plumbers but do not carry the license, business insurance, and bonds to do plumbing.

          Oh btw I do not take over the counter meds unless instructed to by my doctor. But thats due to I am on other prescrition meds and I do not know what the interaction would be.
          Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
          A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
          Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
          Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Statement from Plumbing Supply House Today

            Originally posted by Ninjaskillz View Post
            No one should be able to buy plumbing parts, but plumbers.
            It is just not right that anyone can buy parts, that we can not install without proper certification. Anyone else that believes otherwise is wrong.
            I feel your pain, but THAT horse left the barn a long time ago. My advice above all else.....don't work yourself into an ulcer over something that you can't change. Figure out a business model for YOU that will continue to work

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Statement from Plumbing Supply House Today

              in one way, the fact that homeowners are going to supply houses instead of home depot at at least shows that they're TRYING to do something right

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Statement from Plumbing Supply House Today

                Here is a problem with home owners going to the supply houses, is they waste the plumbers time. A plumber comes in and orders exactly what he wants, and gets out, where as a home owner brings in a part in hopes the supply house clerk can identify it and have parts for it.

                There is a few supply houses here that will wait on a plumber first till all the plumbers are cleared out of the supply house then wait on the home owner. There are also a few heating and cooling supply houses around here that will not give you the time of day unless you can prove you are a contractor.
                Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
                A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
                Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
                Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Statement from Plumbing Supply House Today

                  Originally posted by Pipestone Kid View Post
                  I think just about every trade could come with a similar argument. Heaven forbid that you should change a bad switch in your house--it might burn down!! Lets be real, as long as someone can make a buck, those parts are going to be sold. It might not make us happy, but it is going to happen.
                  I have lobbied to my reps in Congress in my town to begin to regulate the plumbing trade to the point that it is as tough to become a plumber as it is to become certified in a white collar job. Once you realize we are competing with any homeowner who can buy what we can buy, you will agree. The plumbing products will have to become available to licensed plumbers only before we get any relief. I am asked by my local association to implement a journeyman program to train workers. That is the same as training my competition because the requirements to become a plumbing contractor are at this point so easy that they will be a threat to my own customers if I train them-and I am asked to do this for no charge. The legislature must protect us as they do many white collar industries, and make the products for our trade available only to our trade, and the requirements to become a contractor based upon more stringent rules such as experience, education, and available assets to even test for the license. At that point even the supply houses win, because we are now not lowering prices just to get jobs, but have an insulation against unfair competition, and our business now becomes a matter of service from the supply house and not pricing. They make more , we make more, the quality of the work stays high seeing as how only those of us with licenses can perform the work and purchase the products. Maybe this makes too much sense, but at this point plumbers are going to be forced out of the residential market in sevice and new installs as long as Billy Handyman and John Q. Public are allowed to compete for the same dollars we do. The engineering and bookkeeping issues involved in plumbing now have us on par with white collar industries already, so we should be regulated as one. This is one case we should welcome regulation.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Statement from Plumbing Supply House Today

                    Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
                    Your examples are scary, that's for sure.
                    Originally posted by Andy_M View Post

                    But what about the huge number of projects that are done very well? A homeowner can take a lot more time on a job than a pro can afford to take. If he's competent, then the job may well turn out as good or maybe once in a while even better.

                    And let's not forget the number of inept "professionals" out there. Some of us would rather do some research and do the job rather than pay big money to get a crappy job. And that does happen.

                    This is one of the problems with dealing with humans. Mistakes do happen, on both sides. But from what I've seen, most home owners want to do the work as fast and as cheaply as humanely possible. That includes not doing the proper research. Asking, "How do I install this part", at the plumbing house, HD, or a DIY forum doesn’t constitute proper research or training. Every install is different with different problems and situations cropping up. Only knowledge and training will work when they do come up.

                    All rules, and codes....plumbing, electrical, building, medical, driving, legal, OSHA, workers compensation, and morality are in place because they have to be, because enough people screwed up in the past that they actually have to be written down and enforced. Inspectors are supposed to make sure that in the end, we are all protected.

                    I was once told by an owner of a company, "I can't believe that I actually have to put this into the company management manual". He handed me a sheet of paper that stated, Managers will be terminated if they have sex in the office with employees. It wasn't in the manual, so guess who couldn't be terminated?

                    You can also do many legal matters - wills, divorces, trusts, even patents - yourself. And you CAN represent yourself in court. But the judge has to agree that it's in your best interest to do so.

                    As I see it, you can't legislate stupidity out of society. If you try to, you'll just encourage new and creative ways for people to screw up. If someone is going to cap off his T&P valve because it's dripping... well, that's a shame but he'll find a cap somewhere. If you could enjoin homeowners from buying plumbing supplies (really a moot point - never gonna happen) the photos you showed would get more common and even worse as people were forced to jerry rig their repairs. That's not in anybody's interest.

                    Instead we have a system of codes and permits and inspections. Seems to me like a good system - effective but not onerous or draconian (our gas and electric company here, PG&E, is draconian!!) Yes, some people will skirt the system. I don't think giving up my rights is an appropriate way to tackle that problem.

                    What about my rights to protect my family from what you don't know, or what you decided what a 'small', or 'easy' job is? Sure changing a bathroom faucet might be fine, but making changes to piping and venting? I'm not a pro, but I know enough to know to get one when I need one to protect my family and my neighbours.

                    By the way, I don't just *think* it's my right to work on my home -- it IS my right. I have the right UNTIL there is a law on the books that says I am not to work on my plumbing. It is my right, as long as I follow the code and permit regulations and get the inspections where required.

                    The biggest problem that I see here, is that most people don't follow code, because they don't know code, because they don't research code, and that by installing to code will 'cost more'. They aren't exposed to it, and they figure that 'this looks ok', or ' it’s close enough!'. It must be ok, it works! Inspections only get done when inspectors know about the work being done, and they only know about the work being done when a permit is pulled. OOops, pulling a permit costs more money. - So no inspection. This is my home, and I have a RIGHT to work on *my* home. Why should I have to pay a 'tax' to work on my own home? The reason that I'm doing it myself is to do it cheaper.- This is what I hear from the HO's that come into the supply house.

                    You might be following code, and getting inspections, but you know as well as I do, that most DIY's out there aren't.

                    Maybe the answer would be to only be able to purchase plumbing parts if you have a valid plumbing permit, Same as electrical And yes, I've also seen licensed plumbers install items, and do major plumbing renovations without pulling a permit (while they charged for one).

                    I not only have approved backflow devices on my system, I also have the test set so that I can check 'em a couple of times per year.

                    Does your Water District have an active Cross Connection Control Program in place? If they do, they must need a valid annual test report for your device. A valid test report can only be performed by a certified backflow prevention assembly tester. Do you have a valid test performed at least annually? If not, were you certified at one time? Did you ever get a certification? Did you keep your certification active? Were you trained, or did you get the test kit and just read the instructions? Has the test kit had its annual inspection and certification? Do you have liability insurance to protect yourself and protect your family's life savings if something (screws-up) happens with your self tests? If your assembly fails, and your neighbours are affected, I'm pretty sure that they'll want to save money also and not hire a lawyer when they sue you in court.

                    I know you're hearts are in the right place but the arguments about protecting us from ourselves are weak. With freedom comes responsibility.

                    You're right with freedom comes responsibility. Know your limits.

                    But many of us are fully capable of changing a water heater or installing and venting a drain.

                    And many, many more are not but they do have the tools, and are members of a DIY forum.

                    How many mistakes or bad installs are needed before someone gets injured, or worse?

                    Mick
                    .

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Statement from Plumbing Supply House Today

                      Mick, yes there are homeowners that are hacks. But we also know that a hack (pro or homeowner) WILL find a way to butch a job, he'll just use whatever parts he can find. Pros do this often... they use what's on the truck rather than get the right thing. A law such as you're suggesting wouldn't make the DIY problem better, it would make it worse - because you will be encouraging even competent people to do substandard work.

                      Yes, many DIYers don't get inspections. It's not good. The solution of precluding them from buying parts isn't a reasonable solution... I doubt if it's ever going to come to pass on any sort of wide scale.... so the discussion is kind of a moot one.

                      As for your right to protect your family, well, it's an enigma. I still stand by my comment about the worker at the fast food restaurant. It's a bigger and more likely threat than a homeowner doing plumbing. So is driving down the road in light of the drunks and reckless drivers. We live in a society, societies are made up of people, and there is no thing as a completely safe society. You can strive to make it completely safe, but if every aspect of life followed that premise, we would have a very oppressive society. It's not worth it. EVERYTHING you do can be shown to somehow have some impact on someone, potentially pollute something, or whatever. I am in favor of reasonable restrictions on major threats but not on ridiculous restrictions. Saying I can't by a flushmaster, or replace a faucet, or put in lawn sprinklers is ridiculous IMO.

                      If your concern is really safety, rather than loss of business, maybe you should consider lobbying for the counties to undertake the installation and maintenance of backflow devices. They maintain the meters and main valves, why not backflow preventers? Build the costs into the rates. That makes a lot more sense to me.

                      And maybe they should mandate design changes to water heaters to mitigate the problems and provide a redundant safety over temp and overpressure mechanism. The water heater would cost a little more.... I have no problem with that. They have had the same design forever.... why not beat the problem by taking advantage of an engineered solution rather than encroach on MY right to change my bloody water heater?? Many plumbers won't like these ideas I'm sure, but it makes a lot more sense and will probably make a better improvement in safety.

                      No, in my area annual reports on the backfloe preventer aren't required. But the county sent low-flow shower heads out to everyone to conserve water. Their use was a suggestion, not a requirement. Most of these probably got thrown away. Mine is in the garage, I'm not using the damn thing. If they can afford to waste money that way, why not have someone come around every few years and handle these public safety issues? That's a better solution.

                      I don't understand your comment - "same as electrical". I can buy any electrical parts for my home, including wire up to and including service entrance wire, (although the utility insists that they do the final connections - this is true license or not) and I don't have a license. I do need a permit... and passing the gate of inspection is required before I can get a meter from the utility company. Maybe restrictions on sale of electrical parts is in force in some localities, but certainly not where I live.

                      People will get hurt, you're right, doing plumbing or electrical work. It's a serious business. People get hurt doing all manner of things... the REAL question is, what *reasonable* steps can be taken. IMO, saying only tradespeople can buy plumbing parts isn't reasonable and won't work... any more than gun control will eliminate violent crime. Oops,. whiole 'nother can of worms...

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Statement from Plumbing Supply House Today

                        Some of you are painting us homeowners with a mighty big brush! I can assure you that other than the two fine gentlemen on this forum who did my bath remodel, that any electrical, plumbing, or HVAC that I've done on my house was done better and with more appropriate tools and parts than any pro I've hired.

                        I shouldn't have to tell the HVAC guy what normally open/normally closed means on a solinoid, nor how to use the multimeter to check for continuity, then to have the motor fall out of my heat pump three hours after it was installed, ruining it, the fan, and the cover.

                        Or the electrician who installed outside access emergency breakers in a plastic utility box that was more shallow than the height of the breakers. So he just screwed the cover down, bowed over the breakers and wide open to the elements.

                        Or the cable guy who drilled though the foundation wall to install cables in the basement before finding out that I live on a slab...

                        Or the plumber who, for who knows what reason, replaced the copper water lines in my mother's basement with the white coiled plastic, and then instead of running it though the original holes in the floor joists ran it underneath in big looping arcs.

                        Yep, pros, every one of 'em. All pros must be such hacks (using the same logic being used by some of y'all. )
                        Steve
                        www.MorrisGarage.com

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Statement from Plumbing Supply House Today

                          Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
                          Mick, yes there are homeowners that are hacks. But we also know that a hack (pro or homeowner) WILL find a way to butch a job, he'll just use whatever parts he can find. Pros do this often... they use what's on the truck rather than get the right thing. A law such as you're suggesting wouldn't make the DIY problem better, it would make it worse - because you will be encouraging even competent people to do substandard work.

                          Andy, I think that you missed my point. Maybe I didn’t make my point really clear. The only thing that I believe that I suggested was (in a previous post) to have one time buyers, HO's, and DIY's pay full price for plumbing parts at supply houses, and if you are purchasing plumbing parts, have to show a valid plumbing permit so that the final product will be inspected. (This is the part that I am referring to in the comments below)

                          Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
                          Yes, many DIYers don't get inspections. It's not good. The solution of precluding them from buying parts isn't a reasonable solution... I doubt if it's ever going to come to pass on any sort of wide scale.... so the discussion is kind of a moot one.

                          I didn't say don't let them purchase parts, see above.

                          Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
                          As for your right to protect your family, well, it's an enigma. I still stand by my comment about the worker at the fast food restaurant. It's a bigger and more likely threat than a homeowner doing plumbing.

                          Yes I understand that part, but it is a health code violation here for that worker to not wash his hands. I also know that here, Health Canada does make random visits to all restaurants for all health code violations, and that test is one of them. The owner is responsible for enforcing the rules to keep their restaurant open. (acting as a health inspector) To keep the business license here they have to have a valid health inspection. No valid health permit, no business license, no open, no money. Then there is the little fact of the press getting involved and splashing the restaurant name all over the place. You are right Andy, there are consequences for everything! But I believe that there are people out there looking after the public safety in restaurants. I also believe that code inspectors look after the public safety on their end, but they have to know about the installations.

                          Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
                          So is driving down the road in light of the drunks and reckless drivers. We live in a society, societies are made up of people, and there is no thing as a completely safe society. You can strive to make it completely safe, but if every aspect of life followed that premise, we would have a very oppressive society. It's not worth it. EVERYTHING you do can be shown to somehow have some impact on someone, potentially pollute something, or whatever. I am in favor of reasonable restrictions on major threats but not on ridiculous restrictions. Saying I can't by a flushmaster, or replace a faucet, or put in lawn sprinklers is ridiculous IMO.

                          Agreed it is ridiculous, but I didn't say that....again see above.

                          Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
                          If your concern is really safety, rather than loss of business, maybe you should consider lobbying for the counties to undertake the installation and maintenance of backflow devices. They maintain the meters and main valves, why not backflow preventers? Build the costs into the rates. That makes a lot more sense to me.

                          I have been doing the lobbying thing for some time now. However, I don't believe in having the municipality maintain the backflow devices. The mandate for a Water District and a municipality, at least in our areas up here, are to provide fresh potable water to the property line. After it crosses the property line it is the responsibility of the building owner to keep the water clean (if they so choose), and to keep the water on their side of the property line. In other words, the Water district doesn't want it back. Even with a lot of municipalities not having a Cross Connection Control by-law in place, a lot on the insurance companies are starting to put businesses on notice that their policies will not cover liabilities or damages to themselves or others if polluted or contaminated water from their premise gets back into the potable water system. Because a backflow prevention assembly is readily available, insurance companies are starting to want sever hazard clients to maintain their due diligence.

                          Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
                          And maybe they should mandate design changes to water heaters to mitigate the problems and provide a redundant safety over temp and overpressure mechanism. The water heater would cost a little more.... I have no problem with that. They have had the same design forever.... why not beat the problem by taking advantage of an engineered solution rather than encroach on MY right to change my bloody water heater?? Many plumbers won't like these ideas I'm sure, but it makes a lot more sense and will probably make a better improvement in safety.

                          Excellent idea maybe someone could design a device like that and call it, "A pressure relief tank". Could be a money maker. I bet that an inspector would know what to look for. But then again I didn't say that you should'nt be able to change your own water heater. I did say that you should have to get a permit, and have it inspected. I know that you said that you do that, but you also agreed that others don't. Would you trust all of the people that you know, to have the proficiency to change their own water heaters by themselves without an inspection? Would you want your family to live next door to them if they did change it themselves without an inspection?

                          Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
                          No, in my area annual reports on the backflow preventer aren't required.

                          So by your lack of response to the rest of my previous comment, I take that to mean that your version of protection and validation of a testable backflow prevention device is for an unqualified person to perform a test on a device with an uncalibrated tool.

                          Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
                          But the county sent low-flow shower heads out to everyone to conserve water. Their use was a suggestion, not a requirement. Most of these probably got thrown away. Mine is in the garage, I'm not using the damn thing. If they can afford to waste money that way, why not have someone come around every few years and handle these public safety issues? That's a better solution.

                          Now there is something that you could lobby for!

                          Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
                          I don't understand your comment - "same as electrical". I can buy any electrical parts for my home, including wire up to and including service entrance wire, (although the utility insists that they do the final connections - this is true license or not) and I don't have a license. I do need a permit... and passing the gate of inspection is required before I can get a meter from the utility company. Maybe restrictions on sale of electrical parts is in force in some localities, but certainly not where I live.

                          Bingo! I am not talking about you not doing the work (for anything). I am not talking about you not being able to purchase parts. I am talking about getting the final product inspected and making sure that the job is done to code, and done properly.

                          Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
                          People will get hurt, you're right, doing plumbing or electrical work. It's a serious business. People get hurt doing all manner of things... the REAL question is, what *reasonable* steps can be taken. IMO, saying only tradespeople can buy plumbing parts isn't reasonable and won't work... any more than gun control will eliminate violent crime. Oops,. whiole 'nother can of worms...

                          See above...again.

                          Mick

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                          • #43
                            Re: Statement from Plumbing Supply House Today

                            Mick, yeah, I see that you were not advocating restricting sales to plumbers only... sorry. Some others are, though. I have no problem with people in the trades getting a break on the parts.

                            Regarding emplyees washing their hands.... come on now..... the health inspectors here just ask the employee. There is no verification. The boss doesn't follow the employee to the head. You don't really think that every employee washes every time just because he's supposed to, do you? That's no more likely than every homeowner getting a permit for everything he does just because he's supposed to.

                            The water heater doesn't come with the expansion tank when you buy it. That was my point. If the heaters were sold with the safety device (tank or one that has yet to be designed) built in, taking its installation out of the hand of the installer, things would get safer. I acknowledge, by taking this position, that not all people do the best thing every time. That goes for plumbers and electricians, too.

                            Regarding backflow, I see your point about unqualified persons with uncalibrated test tools. However, in my case there is no annual requirement, so yes I feel that I am doing better than local code. Is it enough? You could make a good argument, but the law here says it is. I do think that I can tell if I have a problem with my backflow preventer and that's why I bother.

                            As for the utility taking over the responsibility for backflow maintenance, you defined the convention that's in force now... i.e., "they don't want it (the water) back". Ok, I'm just suggesting that the water company be responsible to make sure that they don't get it back. That's do-able by local government. And, since it's a matter of public interest, and the utility is responsible for providing clean water to everyone, this seems to me to make the most sense.

                            I think we're not all that far apart. As long as I can buy the parts I need, I'm happy. Thanks for your posts... interesting discussion.

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                            • #44
                              Re: Statement from Plumbing Supply House Today

                              First of all I do not really care if a supply house sells to me or not, (as I really have not ever been to a true supply house), or if I get a discount or not, what I normally care about is getting the part or parts I need, and at a reasonable cost.

                              but the basic arguments have been if plumbing parts should be sold to the average Joe,
                              one of the arguments is for public safety, and things would be done better and less hazard to the "others" if only parts were sold to professionals and that said professional would be the one installing,

                              I am from a basically poor economical rural location, (and I have seen a lot of people struggle to survive, my wife works in the local food pantry and know more first hand than I do)

                              two true stories,
                              I knew a fellow that was having a difficult time making ends meet, lived in town Tree roots got in the sewer line from the house to the main, he called a number of PROS to see what the cost would be clear out the line, they priced it out of his range, $300 no some on here say that is not en ought and some may do it cheaper, so what did they do for about a month He had a small enclosure that once was used for protecting an out door electrical box in a temporary situation, and he after moving the enclosure, made it into a out house, and used it for a period of time, knowing the family and the true financial situation I went down and cleared the line for them. (he payed me more than he should have).

                              situation two
                              In the same town another couple for some reason did not have running water, or a working toilet, they were using a bucket and then dumping it in the local business dumpsters at night, needless to say that was sanitary,

                              these are two situations I know about how many more are there out there?

                              NOW, but now you do not want parts sold to persons, so only Pros can profit, What about the persons who nearly regardless can not hire a professional, and are litterly doing well to put just some food on the table, (this does not mean there dumb or lazy people or untalented), The system of clean water entering the home and A working sewer is what has protected the "health of this land". as well as a system of water and wast water treatments,

                              yes plumbers and utility (water and wast works) workers, and a whole host of others, well drillers, engineers and designers has done and directed this work, and protected the health of this country,
                              but much has been done by others (farmers, home owners, and DIY's , but the goal is the same, take the wast and treat it, and bring in fresh and clean water.

                              as you removed from many the access to these two modern fundamental needs, by denying them the parts they need to keep there water and sewer systems working.
                              and you will have a lot more "unregistered out houses" and dumping in dumpsters and in back yards, and so on,
                              which in turn will result in lowing the safety and health of the people,

                              people will relieve them selfs regardless if there is a designed sanitary place to do it or not,
                              and if there is not the sanitary place to do it then many places may start to look like my corrals,
                              Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                              "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
                              attributed to Samuel Johnson
                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                              PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

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                              • #45
                                Re: Statement from Plumbing Supply House Today

                                IMO the first step is realizing the difference between samurais and ninjas.

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