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  • VFD pumps and Cylcle Stop Valves

    Wanna educate yourself and cut through some of the crap?
    Read this

    http://www.amtrol.com/pdf/jlanearticle.pdf

    This stuff is all high end snake oil instead of the usual variety.
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  • #2
    Re: VFD pumps and Cylcle Stop Valves

    wow I have been looking at this for a while and have watched the csv videos and have been installing grundfos sqe systems for four years and goulds pumps for 10 and half. I went to the goulds pump school back in 2005 and learned pump theory tank sizing and all, then the company I worked for got in to SQE systems I helped that effort. I then found out about CSV and thought that CSV might be a better choice how ever these valves could get clogged and pose a problem if the well produces sediment or iron. And if you properly size your tank and pump you are probably going to need to up size the breaker and wire and install low water protection device all of which will jack up the price. I still am undecided on which is best for the customer I have been lately thing believe it or not that maybe the best way to go is with : Goulds pump 3 wire capacitor start capacitor run box like the old red jacket systems as they lasted around 20 yrs. install a wx 255 and a low water cut off switch and call it a day what do you think.

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    • #3
      Re: VFD pumps and Cylcle Stop Valves

      We do a whole lot of pump and tank work. I've seen stuff come and go over the years. Some good and some bad. I like the idea of VFD pumps and if they could just get the reliability and price issues resolved they may be the wave of the future. However 99% of everything we install is a straight up Goulds pump and a properly sized tank. The CSV guys will tell you that pump cycling kills pumps and it does, but if the tank is sized right (or larger) I have not seen cycling be an issue.
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      • #4
        Re: VFD pumps and Cylcle Stop Valves

        very true I have seen 7gso5423 and 10gso5413 on wx 203 with start and run caps last 20 to 28 years never been pulled man thats a good system the other thing is they were hanging of one inch sch 40 p.v.c. I think that may also had some thing to do with it.

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        • #5
          Re: VFD pumps and Cylcle Stop Valves

          I once pulled a 1/2 hp Goulds pump that was about 30 years old. The pump would run but wouldn't build any pressure. It turned out the stainless steel jacket the bowls and impellers sit in wore out and the pump was leaking out the side! Some duct tape and Voila'! (Just kidding).

          Still, it was impressive how long that pump lasted. Very soft water too.
          Time flies like an arrow.

          Fruit flies like a banana.

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          • #6
            Re: VFD pumps and Cylcle Stop Valves

            what do you guys use for a pump puller if its deep?I am looking at buying this EasyRiserhttp://www.pumppuller.com/using_a_model_1977_to_pull_a_pum.htm I'am use to the UpzDaisy that has three wheels and just wondering if you have used this type or seen it used?

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            • #7
              Re: VFD pumps and Cylcle Stop Valves

              We have 2 upzdazies been using them for years. Also have a truck with a boom hoist for those galvy jobs.
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              • #8
                Re: VFD pumps and Cylcle Stop Valves

                I like the constant pressure valves. I don't have much use for VFD systems. They are way overpriced and they don't have much on longevity. Myers come out with the GEM years ago. It fizzled. I did install one of them and I must say that it lasted around 9 years. I was impressed with that part. Although I had to replace the control box twice. It's the electronics that are their problem. The pumps are the same as they always have been. Some use three phase motors and trick up the cycles to change speeds and I understand Myers is coming out with a two wire version that works with a standard two wire pump. I'm waiting for one to try out as we speak.

                As far as pump pulling, I've always had a pump hoist with a walking beam for fishing along with the tools. I wouldn't give you a nickle for one of those wheeled gadgets, but that's just me.


                It has always been my opinion that Plumbers should leave the pumps and tanks to the well drillers and pump guys and we will leave the plumbing to the plumbers. I have seen too many poorly set up systems done by softner people, plumbers, irrigation guys and even pool cleaners that should have been left to someone with far more experience.

                Off the soap box.

                By the way, the constant pressure valve is very handy when you have a system that does more than just provide the home with water. People want irrigation, baths with 47 shower heads, ground water heat pumps using only 5 to 10 gallons per minute 17 hours a day etc. You can't do that with a larger tank and an oversized pump. It just won't last.

                The other thing about pumps today. Seven years is a good long life and that's very average. They don't make those 30 year plus pumps anymore.
                Frequently asked questions about pumps and tanks.

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                • #9
                  Re: VFD pumps and Cylcle Stop Valves

                  Can't say that I agree with that bit about plumbers doing pumps. Been doing pumps for 30 odd years now, am fully licensed. Most plumbers in this area do pumps. As for the 3 wheeler, well it comes in real handy for pumps set on PE pipe, been using them for years with no problems. Also like the portability of the thing. I can shove it into a service truck and go.
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                  • #10
                    Re: VFD pumps and Cylcle Stop Valves

                    Just talked to the guy who sells the easy riser it does have a third wheel thank god the unit weights only 70 lbs compared to 150 lbs for the upzdasiy. So I think my back may want to go with easy riser sorry upzdasiy. Yea NH well drillers are really going to hate me this year as I will have the biggest ad in the water well drilling section. I know a master driller and he is my best source for info. Us plumbers get this complaint though we should not do this or that but it falls under our code and hey if I have a stuck pump I will call my driller to set up his rig and pull and or drill it out if need be so we help each other that is the way I have always seen it But maybe you have some real hack out there. I would call them up see what happened we are all in this together right.

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                    • #11
                      Re: VFD pumps and Cylcle Stop Valves

                      Can't say that I agree with that bit about plumbers doing pumps. Been doing pumps for 30 odd years now, am fully licensed. Most plumbers in this area do pumps. As for the 3 wheeler, well it comes in real handy for pumps set on PE pipe, been using them for years with no problems. Also like the portability of the thing. I can shove it into a service truck and go.
                      __________________
                      I know, I hear that a lot. Put yourself in my shoes. I get the call. Some other person put in the pump, it still doesn't work. They charged a lot of money, the people are all but broke now, the guy won't come back and they want me (who knows how to fix it) to take care of the problem, but they don't have much money now. ((I'm not saying you or anyone else is this guy I'm describing, I'm just saying it happens a lot. Even with people in my trade who are MORONS)) So where does that leave me? If the Well Drillers had a better association like the Plumbers do. We might be putting in Water Heaters, Snaking Drains etc. That doesn't qualify us to do so, but we could still have the legal credentials.

                      When times get tough, like they are now, they get even tougher for us. Now the guys that clean pools, the plumbers, the filtration guys and anyone else who can hold a wrench take on pump jobs. You wouldn't believe how many Mexicans that can't speak more than ten words of English; buy pumps from us to install for their friends and neighbors. This takes work away from me. I also have a store front to keep going. The over the counter sales can't sustain us, so our in the field work is what keeps us going.

                      It also seems like there are more Plumbers in our County now than there are residents. I don't know what that's all about, but it's pretty bad. They also advertise on TV almost as much as the Lawyers.
                      Last edited by speedbump; 03-02-2010, 10:21 AM.
                      Frequently asked questions about pumps and tanks.

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                      • #12
                        Re: VFD pumps and Cylcle Stop Valves

                        well, the economy is having an effect no doubt. In NH you have to have a pump and filter license to play with pumps and filters. Not all plumbers are licensed, but quite a few are. I understand that quite a few states do not require a license at all which seems really stupid to me but then again so does allowing some yahoo to sell pumps and filters out of a motor home and call himself an expert
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                        • #13
                          Re: VFD pumps and Cylcle Stop Valves

                          I have to agree with everything you said. In Michigan (at least 28 years ago) the Plumbers could do anything that included pipes. Same here in Florida. In my opinion, that's stretching someone's expertise a little bit thin.

                          I have a friend that I've known for over 25 years here in Florida. He grew up in the Sewage business. His father did it and so did the three boys. Problem is, the big Plumbers call him to do all the work and they make all the money.

                          It's the same with irrigation contractors here. They call a Well Driller to drill the well for an irrigation well (subdivision entrance or whatever) then when the well is drilled, the irrigation guy goes, buys the pump at the drillers cost, asks him to put it in while he's got the rig set up and the irrigation guy makes all the money. I always thought in order to do subcontracting, you were supposed to be a General Contractor. But the county and state lets these guys get away with it. And since the Well business is dying, these hungry drillers let these guys get away with it.

                          I'm not totally a fan of licensing. The reason some of the Drillers were all for it years ago was to get rid of the non licensed guys. It didn't work then and it never will. The biggest problem with being licensed in your field; is that the powers that be can punish you. They can't do anything to the unlicensed guys.
                          Frequently asked questions about pumps and tanks.

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                          • #14
                            Re: VFD pumps and Cylcle Stop Valves

                            Centrifugal pumps are the most likely pump style to provide a favorable return based on energy savings when applied with a variable-frequency drive (VFD). To help illustrate this, we conducted benchmark testing to document various head and flow scenarios and their corresponding effect on energy savings. We explored the relationship of static and friction head in the energy efficiency equation and the effect of motor, pump and VFD efficiencies. The result is a reference point for plant engineers and maintenance personnel to select the best prospects for maximizing efficiency and energy savings.
                            While most centrifugal pumps operate at the fixed flow established by the hard-piped “free system” needs, many systems require variable flow to meet changing process demands. The two most common methods for controlling variable pump system output are a control valve (throttling) and a variable speed drive.
                            Controlling the flow with a throttling valve is like modulating the speed of a car using only the brake pedal. You set the accelerator pedal at a fixed point and use the brake to change speed. The engine works at nearly the same rate, but applying the brake restricts the work output by changing the resistance of the drive train. At low speed, the engine strains, the brakes overheat and reliability suffers — while consuming fuel at a nearly constant rate. Of course, this is a silly way to control your car, but most varying pumping systems are controlled in an analogous manner. The pump speed is fixed and a control valve adds system resistance, changing the system curve and thus restricting the output of the pumping system — while consuming nearly the same amount of energy.
                            Alabama plumbers

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                            • #15
                              Re: VFD pumps and Cylcle Stop Valves

                              Well, not quite. When you restrict either the inlet or outlet to an electrically powered pump, or fan motor for that matter, the pump moves less water and therefore there is less resistance on the impellers. This increases pump speed and drops the amperage the motor draws. A car and it's brakes are a totally different animal because in that case the brakes are creating resistance in the drive train and transferring it to the motor. However, a VFD motor, will indeed save energy because it matches it's motor speed to the demand. Cycle stop valves accomplish much the same purpose but have restrictions as to how deep you can pump from and how much volume you can put through them. They claim to save energy by reducing stop and start cycles, which they do. However, the same effect can be accomplished by oversizing the pressure tank. The other problem with CSV's is the pressure lag when another faucet is opened.
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