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  • These things are coming....

    I think these things are going to be coming around more and more.

    Rheem, GE, (Same?) and now this thing. Maybe good. Maybe not.

    http://www.airgenerate.com/

    J.C.

  • #2
    Re: These things are coming....

    If it works, great. I'm not letting my customer be Guinea pigs.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: These things are coming....

      Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
      I think these things are going to be coming around more and more.

      Rheem, GE, (Same?) and now this thing. Maybe good. Maybe not.

      http://www.airgenerate.com/

      J.C.
      Very interesting. Thanks for sharing. It's sure looking like the wave of the future.
      Time flies like an arrow.

      Fruit flies like a banana.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: These things are coming....

        Wow, only takes 3 hours to heat up to temperature from incoming water temperature. Talk about a fast recovery rating. That will really cause some fights for who gets to shower first.
        Distractions are everywhere, don't lose sight of your dream.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: These things are coming....

          Originally posted by Devine Plumbing View Post
          Wow, only takes 3 hours to heat up to temperature from incoming water temperature. Talk about a fast recovery rating. That will really cause some fights for who gets to shower first.
          That is a downside to using Heat Pump only water heating. Slow recovery.

          But don't you also get the benefit of cooling and dehumidification? (I know. Only beneficial in warmer times or areas.)

          And I'm not sure you have to turn the elements off. So that would boost recovery.

          J.C.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: These things are coming....

            Air generate was the first to market a heat pump water heater, they tried to sign me up as a reseller about 5 years ago. Then Rheem, GE and a few others jumped on the bandwagon.

            When I first saw the design I was unimpressed and I am still unimpressed.
            Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
            A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
            Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
            Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: These things are coming....

              Thank-You for Sharing this technology.
              I'm sure customers are going to be asking.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: These things are coming....

                Sounds like , " Well Bill, Helen and frank have a tankless , and Al says it's green!. Yea , and We have a toilet that won't flush crap !!
                Last edited by toolaholic; 03-07-2010, 11:45 AM.
                I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: These things are coming....

                  The places where the heat pump water heaters will shine is in the southern tier states where the heat pump can be used 90 - 100% of the year.

                  In the northern tier states the heat pump feature will run efficiently about 50% of the year.

                  A few years back Northeast Utilities ran a testing program on them, I actually recently replaced one that was leaking and the owner would have been willing to buy again except at the time these new units were not available yet. In order for these to qualify for the rebates, grants and tax credit the heat pump has to be integral to the water heater. Newer refrigerants contribute to higher efficiencies since the Hotshot Testing Program here is a link to the Hotshot Test results...

                  The GE, Rheem, Ruud units are all similar in the design of the units although the GE and Rheem are separate designs breaking from the past where Rheem made GE. The heat pump is significantly different on the GE units. However all 3 share the use of 2 4500-watt elements on a 50-gallon tank in addition to the heat pump feature which would allow their use in a less than optimum climate.

                  AO Smith has introduced the Voltex heat pump water heater but at this time there is little information available on them and they are not available yet.

                  Only the Stiebel Eltron Accelera 300 Heat Pump Water Heater is a heat pump water heater in the purist sense. The Accelera 300 uses an 80 gallon tank for increased storage, with a single 1750-watt element for supplemental heating. The Accelera 300 requires only a 15-amp breaker for operation and has a higher 1st hour delivery than the others making up for the slower recovery. I think this unit would be more suited to use in the southern tier as it is a purist type unit and is not adapted for use in areas where the heat pump is not efficient.

                  You can read more about them here
                  411 Plumb Appliance Stimulus Package

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: These things are coming....

                    Here is my take and pleeeeeaaaase tell me if I'm wrong. Energy can be neither created nor destroyed. If the water is being heated from conditioned air from inside the house won't this cause the air in the house to need more conditioning, either heating or cooling? Now if the initial air comes from outside then I guess that solves that trouble.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: These things are coming....

                      Originally posted by saysflushable View Post
                      Here is my take and pleeeeeaaaase tell me if I'm wrong. Energy can be neither created nor destroyed. If the water is being heated from conditioned air from inside the house won't this cause the air in the house to need more conditioning, either heating or cooling? Now if the initial air comes from outside then I guess that solves that trouble.
                      It depends on where you are.

                      As I said in the norther tier states the heat pump will only be effective about 50% of the year.

                      In the southern tier states 90 - 100% of the year. Basically you are looking at the heat pump offering a cooling boost to your A/C needs.
                      411 Plumb Appliance Stimulus Package

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: These things are coming....

                        Originally posted by saysflushable View Post
                        Here is my take and pleeeeeaaaase tell me if I'm wrong. Energy can be neither created nor destroyed. If the water is being heated from conditioned air from inside the house won't this cause the air in the house to need more conditioning, either heating or cooling? Now if the initial air comes from outside then I guess that solves that trouble.
                        You are absolutely NOT wrong!!

                        A heat pump water heater will cool the surrounding ambient, since the principle of a heat pump is to, in it's simplest description, move heat from a cold reservoir (room air) to hot one (the tank water at say 130F).

                        These things are intended to be, and work real well if, installed in an unheated or semi heated area, such as a basement or garage. There are conditions where, despite your quite correct observation, it will still be an advantage to install this gizmo in a heated space... for instance, if your space heating is accomplished by some significantly cheaper means than electric water heating on a 'per equivalent energy' basis, and in consideration of the energy it takes to operate the heat pump. For example if your fuel oil fired space heater is cheaper to run per btu than your electric rates (not generally expressed in btu so you would have to convert kW hours to btu - not hard to do) then this MIGHT still make sense... depending on the specific numbers.

                        Installed in a basement, you will get some level of dehumidification, essentially for free, with a heat pump water heater. This could be a bonus. And in summer you might drop the temp of the a degree or two, which is perhaps nice if you use the basement for a workshop? Maybe not much advantage in a garage installation... it will still dehumidify and cool, but in a large, poorly sealed garage you might not notice.

                        There are a number of manufacturers of heat pump water heaters, both so-called "split" units like the Airtap that JC linked to or the "Geyser" model, and also stand-alone 50 gallon drop in units from GE, Rheem, Ruud (same unit as Rheem, I'm pretty sure), and Stiebel-Eltron (80 gallon). Most of these have pretty good performance (COP = 2 or more) all the way down to about 40F. Below that , due mostly to the refrigerants used, the performance kind of falls apart. For this reason, The stand-alone water heaters all have built in backup conventional resistance heater elements, to cope with low temps below 40F as well as high demand periods.

                        But no matter what, as ambient temperature (that is, the temp of the "air source") drops, the energy advantage of the system lessens. Doesn't mean that the thing isn't good... overall average outdoor temps are actually well above 40F in most of the country for most of the year! There are months where, in certain places, you wouldn't see much savings... but overall, it will still probably be an improvement.

                        In Japan, there are a few manufacturers that are making heat pumps with CO2 as the refrigerant. This allows decent performance down to -15C ( about 5F). This is really exciting performance... but the units are insanely expensive... utterly crazy.... I ran across one that was $8300.

                        The domestic units start at about $500 for the littl 110V add on boxes and go up to $1700 for the new GE unit... probably about the same for Rheem/Ruud.... maybe a bit more for Stiebel-Eltron (but really good performance on that one).

                        There's a lot of history here in the US on this technology, including work that resulted in at least one patent by Oak Ridge National Lab (yup, the plutonium people). Being ex- Lawrence Livermore National Lab myself, it's always fun to see science guys getting involved in the real world. The GE makes use of the Oak Ridge technology, not sure abbout Rheem/Ruud, and I know that Stiebel-Eltron doesn't... they have their own tech from doing this in Europe for a long time.

                        I'm not a plumber, so you might wonder why I'm so interested.... I'm currently doing research on heat pumps for another problem and these units are about the same level of price/performance/output... it's all fallout from the research.

                        If any of you guys here want to talk more or can add any info or experience on the specifics of these things, reliability (a problem in the past but maybe not so much with these new ones) or performance, or if you become aware of other developments, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE pm me as this is a hot (no pun intended, sorry) area for me right now.

                        -Andy
                        Last edited by Andy_M; 03-07-2010, 07:37 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Re: These things are coming....

                          Lots of money for not so much savings
                          sigpic

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                          • #14
                            Re: These things are coming....

                            Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                            Lots of money for not so much savings
                            But when you throw in them guberment money programs its not so bad...
                            Might as well get your share!
                            You don't see the banks, insurance companies and wall street turning it down...
                            411 Plumb Appliance Stimulus Package

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: These things are coming....

                              Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                              Lots of money for not so much savings
                              I agree, the price is high. What's a consumer pay for a good 50gal electric at HD or Lowes? About $500?

                              The Oak Ridge project targeted an upcharge of $400 for the heat pump water heater, above the standard electric. In their report they said they achieved it, but they really didn't, it's more like $1000.

                              But with an energy factor of 2 on the GE, Rheem/Ruud and maybe a bit more on Stiebel-Eltron, that's not THAT bad savings every year, is it? What's annual water heating cost per year? $2-300 per year? Depends on local rates. But yeah, saving half of that isn't all that fantastic.

                              Maybe price will come down if volume takes off. I don't see why it couldn't. You can get a refrigerator for $500. The heat pump components are bigger in the water heater but similar in many ways.

                              And as Redwood says, there's rebates available.

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