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would you violate the code?

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  • #16
    Re: would you violate the code?

    I will follow code on new installs or remodels since the inspectors can be a real tools. But when it is service work, that is a different animal, I do what will work and be mostly legal.

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    • #17
      Re: would you violate the code?

      With all due respect, if you "STRONGLY DISAGREE" with something in the code, I wonder if you understand the code correctly.

      For everyone....can you mention some code section which you feel is so incorrect as to "strongly disagree"??????

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      • #18
        Re: would you violate the code?

        So let's now elaborate on this and say that we have a conversation with the local code official. As luck would have it, the code official see's our point of view and allows our modification to the letter of the code to pass. Now let's say that some horrible thing happens a couple months down the road that results in massive property damage and perhaps even personal injury. Who do you think the lawyers are going to go after. Are you going to be able to stand up before the Judge and say " well ya, but the code officer said it was ok and signed off." and get away with it? Next question, can the code be properly interpreted in any more than one way?
        sigpic

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        • #19
          Re: would you violate the code?

          Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
          So let's now elaborate on this and say that we have a conversation with the local code official. As luck would have it, the code official see's our point of view and allows our modification to the letter of the code to pass. Now let's say that some horrible thing happens a couple months down the road that results in massive property damage and perhaps even personal injury. Who do you think the lawyers are going to go after. Are you going to be able to stand up before the Judge and say " well ya, but the code officer said it was ok and signed off." and get away with it? Next question, can the code be properly interpreted in any more than one way?
          I have been told more than once that an inspector is has intentions for "the good of community and he/she & the department is immune from prosecution".
          How much teeth it has, I don't know. One more obstacle. In todays times, no-one is immune from prosecution.

          Attorneys will ALWAYS go after most money and least resistance. Always.

          Can a code be interpreted in more than one way? Common sense says no, but practice shows otherwise.

          Plumbing code. IPC and UPC. Why both? Do they use completely different fixtures requiring different design? If not, then the requirements of design should be the same. If they are different, then one of them is less stringent and should be abandoned immediately.

          And stay with me on this, if they are different and both provide what a court would call reasonable results, then that concludes that plumbing has different acceptable installations and therefore.....interpretations.

          I took CE a few months back and the instructor repeated over and over that local code supersedes STATE CODE (IPC HERE) provided it meets the minimum requirements of that code.

          I made the point of the madness of that but got nowhere. That only gives me about 100 codes to keep track of.....

          J.C.

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          • #20
            Re: would you violate the code?

            Originally posted by Plumbducky View Post
            I will follow code on new installs or remodels since the inspectors can be a real tools. But when it is service work, that is a different animal, I do what will work and be mostly legal.
            Offhand I don't recall ever having met a plumbing inspector that wasn't reasonable. Occasionally when some issue comes up where I can't meet the plumbing code unless I play hackman with the framing I can usually find some solution with the inspector. It's important, imho, to be upfront with them and ask before going with whatever course I've laid out. Inspectors aren't there to make our lives difficult imo. They are there to ensure adherence to the code as much as possible. All we have to do is to do things properly.
            Time flies like an arrow.

            Fruit flies like a banana.

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            • #21
              Re: would you violate the code?

              You ****ing right I would tell the judge that to his face. In court, under oath.

              From my understanding the code official has the power to midify code as he sees. Long as it is safe, what he says goes.
              My avatar, is every mans wet dream, don't lie. We all know you ride the bedroom moped

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              • #22
                Re: would you violate the code?

                Originally posted by Rohten View Post
                You ****ing right I would tell the judge that to his face. In court, under oath.

                From my understanding the code official has the power to modify code as he sees. Long as it is safe, what he says goes.
                OK but what if the code official is one of those one man shows where he is the building, plumbing and electrical inspector all rolled into one and........... he holds no licenses of any kind ( which is ok because it's unconstitutional to require code officials to be licensed (go figure)) Under those circumstances does he have the authority ot ammend the code?
                sigpic

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                • #23
                  Re: would you violate the code?

                  Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                  I have been told more than once that an inspector is has intentions for "the good of community and he/she & the department is immune from prosecution".
                  How much teeth it has, I don't know. One more obstacle. In todays times, no-one is immune from prosecution.
                  If the inspector is a government employee, performing his or her government duties, following correct policy, then they are immune from lawsuits; and the government will pay to defend them. That's why, for example, if a professor at SUNY writes up a student for cheating, the state defends them and they aren't personally liable.

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                  • #24
                    Re: would you violate the code?

                    Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                    If you were to run across a situation or a passage in the plumbing code that you strongly disagree with, would you either ignore it, violate it or go along with it because it is the law?

                    Part 2, would you advise someone to ignore or violate the code for the same reason.
                    I wish I could say every thing I have installed was to code and 99 percent is but we are human we are made to fault its in are blood
                    SMELLS LIKE $$$$$$ TO ME

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                    • #25
                      Re: would you violate the code?

                      Good to know you guys face the same dilema. Over here we have these things called LAWYERS who love Litigation resulting in liability. So if there is a code follow the code and plead teh 5th. However over here our Standard, although we are told it is teh Bible of Plumbing, is only a guide. So this leads to further confusion, and more money for LAWYERS. So we are faced with the issue of do or dont. WE can go outside the Australian Standard if we can prove it is OK. However we are held liable for teh life of the installation. What we have to do is outsmart the regulators. NOt in a mischievious way but rather play their game. As an example if yo buy a new car and it breaks down, you think you know enough because we used to tinkle when we were kids. Cant fix it so take it back to the dealer for warranty. What does he say - on your bike or something more extreme. So to get to the point I believe that if someone, even another Plumber touches my work all warranties and promises are off. We are legally entitled to first call to warranty. Unfortunately there are more and more pieces of trash trying to rip us off through false claims. We find this out and put our hands out and get told to bugger off. So it is an evil circle and we need to be more savvy in business. Stepping outsdie the rules, we all have done it but we usually do it carefully and not necessarily for financial gain but rather to solve the inevitable problem.

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                      • #26
                        Re: would you violate the code?

                        Originally posted by lovetheUSA View Post
                        With all due respect, if you "STRONGLY DISAGREE" with something in the code, I wonder if you understand the code correctly.

                        For everyone....can you mention some code section which you feel is so incorrect as to "strongly disagree"??????
                        Here's an example: I have always run drain lines in as direct as possible a route to the drain, taking off the vent above that piping, then horizontally from that run to the nearest wall where I can proceed vertically. Now, the code says do the opposite: run over to where the vent wall is, THEN take off from the vertical piping and run to the drain, so that there will be NO horizontal venting below the spill of the fixture. The logic, as I understand it, is that you don't want the vent to become fouled if that drain backs up because you wouldn't necessarily be able to clear it.

                        BUT. Now that we're required to run over to the vent riser, THEN back to the drain location, in some cases we're doing two things wrong: Adding more developed run to the overall drain piping, and in most cases decreasing the amount of fall of that line, due to the extra length.

                        Last inspector I tried to reason with made me tear out four drain and vent runs so that the vent piping would have nothing horizontal. I argued. I lost. Most codes have the phrase "local authority" in them, which gives the inspector final say. That's both a good and a bad thing; I've encountered inspectors who just don't understand the whole code book and want things done "their way," irrespective of logic AND code. On the other hand, I've had results with inspectors who understand that we're trying our best but can't be expected to destroy the building, just to run the piping strictly according to the rule.

                        As I've not spent a lot of my career on drain-cleaning, has anyone else experienced a bunch of blocked vent piping from back-ups? Is this really an improvement of the code?
                        Last edited by Western Reserve; 03-27-2010, 12:41 PM. Reason: deleted repetitive wording

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                        • #27
                          Re: would you violate the code?

                          Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                          OK but what if the code official is one of those one man shows where he is the building, plumbing and electrical inspector all rolled into one and........... he holds no licenses of any kind ( which is ok because it's unconstitutional to require code officials to be licensed (go figure)) Under those circumstances does he have the authority ot ammend the code?
                          Yes he does, if he is the elected official. That is where you, the pro, come in. To not only interpret the code yourself, but to explain to him and anyone else why you are doing what you are doing.

                          Regardless of him being a one man show, and knowing nothing about plumbing, he is the law, and what he says goes. If you are unsure of his authority, QUESTION him. And if he is the inspector, I wouldn't swet it to much. And if you are that worried about it, then maybe you should not be looking for a exception to the rules no matter who says it is okay.
                          My avatar, is every mans wet dream, don't lie. We all know you ride the bedroom moped

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                          • #28
                            Re: would you violate the code?

                            Originally posted by Rohten View Post
                            Yes he does, if he is the elected official. That is where you, the pro, come in. To not only interpret the code yourself, but to explain to him and anyone else why you are doing what you are doing.

                            Regardless of him being a one man show, and knowing nothing about plumbing, he is the law, and what he says goes. If you are unsure of his authority, QUESTION him. And if he is the inspector, I wouldn't swet it to much. And if you are that worried about it, then maybe you should not be looking for a exception to the rules no matter who says it is okay.
                            Are you sure of that?
                            sigpic

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                            • #29
                              Re: would you violate the code?

                              What I want to do here is force any local official that has a different or more stringent interpretation of the code to submit it to the state for approval before it is allowed to be enforced.

                              Then it must be included for the whole state.

                              Working on it....

                              J.C.

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                              • #30
                                Re: would you violate the code?

                                Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                                Are you sure of that?

                                I don't have my codebook handy, but if he is the elected official, then yes, what he says goes. Cities around here adopt little city codes that we must follow all the time. Biggest variation would be the T&P line. Every city it's different. Some will let you drain in the pan, some in the sewer, it's almost like it changes daily such a hassle.

                                So ya, If I call the city and request an inspector and they send one, and we discuss some variation in the code that is not allowed but for some reason I think it should be done, and he approves it....Then how could it be wrong? So long as you have paperwork from the city saying they allowed this, in this case only for whatever reason, I do not see any reason you could be held liable at all.

                                With that being said, I am just GUESSING. I have never actually needed something like that, and dang sure never had to go to court over anything. So my best educated GUESS, would be yes. If he is the inspector, and he approves it, then hell yes, you are good.
                                My avatar, is every mans wet dream, don't lie. We all know you ride the bedroom moped

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