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  • #16
    Re: Copper Pinholes

    Originally posted by bdp View Post
    bummer, now you all think im a hack. I'll look into the new flux and thanks for the lesson

    Bryan
    I am available to come to your area for "de-hacking" lessons.

    On to the copper. I'm not sure I believe that the old type, supposedly non-flushable, flux causes major problems like some tend to say. There are literally millions of feet and joints of copper with the old flux, probably many joints unreamed, that have been in 30+years without leaks. Nobody thinks about these because it's like all things. Out of sight-out of mind, why mess with it?

    Water chemistry, velocity/flow rate, and pressure surely play a part. And that may be the major reason for some problems rather than the flux.

    I have seen the pipes & joints cut lengthwise in investigations where the investigators draw conclusions that unflushed-old type-flux and/or unreaming caused premature failure.

    That's their conclusions for the investigation at hand but in no way draws conclusive results because they do not explain how the unflushed flux and possibly unreamed joints on other systems have no problems.

    Investigators don't go cutting out and splitting joints & pipes where nobody has any complaints to my knowledge. Until they do, the evidence appears to be inconclusive to me.

    J.C.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Copper Pinholes

      unreamed pipe causes no issues until you create flow. the more flow, the more issues. without constant flow or high volume for the pipe size, reaming wouldn't come into play.

      i once had an inspector call me reaming my copper at the angle stop compression joint tried to have a debate with him over it, but he said it was the code. he had no concept that an unreamed 1/2'' copper stub out reducing to a 1/4'' opening at the angle stop would play no role, either reamed or unreamed. problem was this was a 544 unit apartment building and i didn't want to get on his bad side. so i reamed every stub out prior to installing the over 5000 angle stops.

      to this day, i've never seen or heard of a leak at a copper stub out caused by reaming or not reaming. there is absolutely no flow difference from an angle stop that was reamed or not reamed,. but that was an inspector who was going by the code and not common sense.

      yet on a hot water circulating system, i can tell you that unremed copper will defiantly wear faster than a properly reamed joint.

      and flux left within a joint does create corrosion. especially when it is in a clump that creates a change in the flow characteristics.

      so the real question is not whether reaming or flux has an adverse affect, it's why plumbers aren't installing the copper as per code.

      and why are there so many plumbers that are unaware of water soluble flux that's code

      it's not just a california thing

      rick.
      phoebe it is

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Copper Pinholes

        Most that I know are aware of the code and the soluble flux. Have known for some time. You know the answer to why they may not be using it if they are aware of the code.

        Mostly PEX now.

        J.C.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Copper Pinholes

          I have the pipe with the pinhole.
          big flux goober in there.
          Other repipes were probably lasting due to the fact that type l was used.

          Oh yeah,I forget to say.
          The homeowner called last night.
          the last two leaks are on the cold.Before that was three on the hot.

          So now he's back on the repipe list
          Last edited by drtyhands; 04-02-2010, 09:37 AM.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Copper Pinholes

            Well We have a 1958 Eichler slab home. I installed a grundfos recirc. pump with Manifold under farthest Lav. No access for a separate re sirc. line. Didn't want to go the roof route.
            Return water goes back in the cold water pipe. I run it 1 hour each Morn. My concern is
            pinholes ! I'm hoping that this system is low enough velocity , that that .won't happen .
            Also hope in 58 L was used and they reamed everything back then. Any thoughts?
            I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Copper Pinholes

              Originally posted by drtyhands View Post
              I have the pipe with the pinhole.
              big flux goober in there.
              Other repipes were probably lasting due to the fact that type l was used.

              Oh yeah,I forget to say.
              The homeowner called last night.
              the last two leaks are on the cold.Before that was three on the hot.

              So now he's back on the repipe list
              Edumacate me. Seriously.

              Type l? Characteristics? Other types? Just trying to understand what you mean and learn.

              Thanks.

              J.C.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Copper Pinholes

                Pretty low volume isn't it.I wouldn't worry about it.
                Are you slab on grade
                If so it's "L"
                It's more resilliant...Obviously

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Copper Pinholes

                  Originally posted by toolaholic View Post
                  Well We have a 1958 Eichler slab home. I installed a grundfos recirc. pump with Manifold under farthest Lav. No access for a separate re sirc. line. Didn't want to go the roof route.
                  Return water goes back in the cold water pipe. I run it 1 hour each Morn. My concern is
                  pinholes ! I'm hoping that this system is low enough velocity , that that .won't happen .
                  Also hope in 58 L was used and they reamed everything back then. Any thoughts?
                  WITH non-soluble flux. 52 years with non-soluble.

                  J.C.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Copper Pinholes

                    Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                    Edumacate me. Seriously.

                    Type l? Characteristics? Other types? Just trying to understand what you mean and learn.

                    Thanks.

                    J.C.
                    Type l is thicker,less apt to show signs of wear.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Copper Pinholes

                      Originally posted by drtyhands View Post
                      Type l is thicker,less apt to show signs of wear.
                      Duhhhh.....I thought you were talking about a Type l flux.

                      I usually see copper labeled Type L so the typing kind of threw me.

                      Thanks.

                      J.C.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Copper Pinholes

                        Originally posted by drtyhands View Post
                        Pretty low volume isn't it.I wouldn't worry about it.
                        Are you slab on grade
                        If so it's "L"
                        It's more resilliant...Obviously
                        Thanks Adam. Yes, it's slab on grade with copper water and radiant heat. Earlier homes used iron . They all have been re piped on the roof.
                        NASTY LOOKING
                        I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Copper Pinholes

                          Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                          WITH non-soluble flux. 52 years with non-soluble.

                          J.C.
                          My pipes are still good at 67! Well, most of them.
                          I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Copper Pinholes

                            tool, your system will outlast the traditional recirc 24/7 no doubt. but you will eventually wear the copper thin enough to create a pin hole. water in motion will wear copper faster than static water.

                            the question is now or later

                            honestly your pump and 1 hour timer is the best design. low volume/ low head and low use. and if it ever does go bad, we can have a roundup at your house

                            rick.
                            phoebe it is

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Copper Pinholes

                              Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                              tool, your system will outlast the traditional recirc 24/7 no doubt. but you will eventually wear the copper thin enough to create a pin hole. water in motion will wear copper faster than static water.

                              the question is now or later

                              honestly your pump and 1 hour timer is the best design. low volume/ low head and low use. and if it ever does go bad, we can have a roundup at your house

                              rick.
                              Wow,sounds Great ! I refuse to arm wrestle You, though !
                              I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Copper Pinholes

                                so, when i'm at the supply house this morning, i'll look for water soluble flux. what brand flux do you guys find the best to work with

                                Comment

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