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  • #31
    Re: Copper Pinholes

    Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
    tool, your system will outlast the traditional recirc 24/7 no doubt. but you will eventually wear the copper thin enough to create a pin hole. water in motion will wear copper faster than static water.

    the question is now or later

    honestly your pump and 1 hour timer is the best design. low volume/ low head and low use. and if it ever does go bad, we can have a roundup at your house

    When you say 24/7 or that it runs for an 1 hour in the morning is there any kind of aquastat on that?


    • #32
      Re: Copper Pinholes

      It seems I am doing nothing but copper pipe repairs these days.

      I have made some observations. The homes I am doing the repairs on are on average only 25 years old. They are slab on grade with the copper pipes run underground. I am having to handle pinhole leaks in the underground pipes and also the pipes in the walls and ceilings. The area I usually work is south Orange County, CA. What I have found is that the majority of the homes were entirely piped-in with soft copper. Some is type L, but most is type M - especially when above the slab. The soft copper is failing due to pinholes. Most of the homes that I am doing repairs on have had more than one pinhole leak in the past - whether above or below the slab. I don't think the soft copper is cutting it, but I don't know of a better way to run underground piping at this point. I think we need a better way.
      Last edited by Dakota; 04-02-2010, 10:25 PM.


      • #33
        Re: Copper Pinholes

        Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
        I am available to come to your area for "de-hacking" lessons.

        On to the copper. I'm not sure I believe that the old type, supposedly non-flushable, flux causes major problems like some tend to say. There are literally millions of feet and joints of copper with the old flux, probably many joints unreamed, that have been in 30+years without leaks. Nobody thinks about these because it's like all things. Out of sight-out of mind, why mess with it?

        Water chemistry, velocity/flow rate, and pressure surely play a part. And that may be the major reason for some problems rather than the flux.

        I have seen the pipes & joints cut lengthwise in investigations where the investigators draw conclusions that unflushed-old type-flux and/or unreaming caused premature failure.

        That's their conclusions for the investigation at hand but in no way draws conclusive results because they do not explain how the unflushed flux and possibly unreamed joints on other systems have no problems.

        Investigators don't go cutting out and splitting joints & pipes where nobody has any complaints to my knowledge. Until they do, the evidence appears to be inconclusive to me.

        Sorry guys but I am of the opinion that the CHEMISTRY is playing a great part in the corrosion. Also can you help me out with a touchy question, "where is the copper tuber coming from???? " At a conference the Copper manufacturers were very quick do dispel this relationship of manufacturers and location. We are somewhat suspicious mainly due to teh reaction of the SCIENTISTS. They claim it is a worldwide problem, we accept this. What they dont want to do is open up the litigation train to their doors. Also there are areas here where we ahve high instances and areas which have nothing. Reaming, definitely is an issue but over here the majority of plumbers would think you were talking another languauge and not understand. Flux, new one on me but I am not discounting it either. You guys have started a real interesting discussion here


        • #34
          Re: Copper Pinholes

          Also one otrher question, how do you solder your pipe. Do you use razor gas or similar or do you use Oxy and Aceteylene


          • #35
            Re: Copper Pinholes

            I attribute copper pipe pin hole leaks to numerous reasons in Florida. There is plumber error with the improper soldering and not reaming the pipe, kinked soft copper. I have seen numerous installations where other trades have installed their work improperly. Re-barb and wire against the copper tubing creating issues. I also attribute it to the chemicals in the water piping pulling the chemicals out of the copper piping. We have sand which is used to clean bridges, pebbles, shell and the vibration or velocity causes a rubbing issue with the ground. This combination is very hard on the copper piping. It seems the only time the copper is protected is when it penetrates the concrete floor.
            We discovered the majority of our pin hole leaks to be within 3 feet of a soldered joint and mostly on the cold water side. I wonder if the anode rod helps protect the hot water line.


            • #36
              Re: Copper Pinholes

              i googled "razor gas". mapp gas came up. i don't use it some do. some use propane (lp). i use a air/acetylene kit x-3b with a tank tote with a "b" cylinder. it's funny you mentioned oxy/ace, i have made some good money betting people that i could sweat with an oxy/air cutoff torch. don't get close and don't dilly dally. did it at a trade show once. breid.......................