Announcement

Announcement Module
Collapse
No announcement yet.

Copper Pinholes

Page Title Module
Move Remove Collapse
X
Conversation Detail Module
Collapse
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Copper Pinholes

    Another house repiped in copper quite a few years ago(10).
    Type "m" unreamed.
    Leaks not uniform with velocity erosion.Sometimes 10" away from fittings.
    Nice looking job.
    Attic install
    1" system to all fixture drops to reduce noise.
    4 holes in eight years
    Neighbors have no problems on older pipe.

    Hot or cold gets pinholes.I saw 1 patch on cold.My pipe replacement was on a cold drop.

    Rick reminded me this morning about his thread on pinholes
    Anyone got a link
    I can see the similarities

    I figure non water soluable flux used up until the mid 90's.

    I called the homeowner.He's researching to see other patches.I'm hoping they're on the cold.

    How bout yours Ricky.The hot side does not need repipe cause the flux melted and washed away.

    You other jurisdiction plumbers still using petrolium base Flux.How are you flushing?

  • #2
    Re: Copper Pinholes

    Originally posted by drtyhands View Post
    Another house repiped in copper quite a few years ago(10).
    Type "m" unreamed.
    Leaks not uniform with velocity erosion.Sometimes 10" away from fittings.
    Nice looking job.
    Attic install
    1" system to all fixture drops to reduce noise.
    4 holes in eight years
    Neighbors have no problems on older pipe.

    Hot or cold gets pinholes.I saw 1 patch on cold.My pipe replacement was on a cold drop.

    Rick reminded me this morning about his thread on pinholes
    Anyone got a link
    I can see the similarities

    I figure non water soluable flux used up until the mid 90's.

    I called the homeowner.He's researching to see other patches.I'm hoping they're on the cold.

    How bout yours Ricky.The hot side does not need repipe cause the flux melted and washed away.

    You other jurisdiction plumbers still using petrolium base Flux.How are you flushing?
    To be honest I have always found the price advantage to a cold only or hot only repipe to not be worth it. Give them a price each way and I can almost guarantee they will go with a complete repipe.

    Mark
    "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

    I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Copper Pinholes

      Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
      To be honest I have always found the price advantage to a cold only or hot only repipe to not be worth it. Give them a price each way and I can almost guarantee they will go with a complete repipe.

      Mark
      I was going in a different direction,but then again what else is new.
      I hear you.

      I was going to suggest rinsing the cold with hot water maybe add some type of chem.
      Wonder how much life is left in the copper for more internal patina.


      Mark...
      AHHH forget it,I wouldn't win anyway.
      Why you make me think so much.

      Anyone,
      Else

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Copper Pinholes

        If it was me, I would talk to them more about replacing the line then flushing it out. If you want to talk to them about it, that's fine. I'd also give them a price for flushing, for replacing the cold, or for replacing both. Flushing the line won't fix the un-reamed pipe.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Copper Pinholes

          They've been approached on the repipe years ago.They know


          I wanna be the guy with a diagnosis and remedy

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Copper Pinholes

            Who wants to defend not reaming ?
            I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Copper Pinholes

              I havent seen copper that corroded from the inside, but unwrapped copper underground does corrode here and pin hole. the petroleum based flux is the only one i've used here, and dont think i ever seen the water based.
              last week we started to demo plumbing for a remodel of a full time occupied 19 year old house, m above, l soft below, not reamed, corrosion only on the outside, a little flux still stuck to the bottom of a few fittings, lots of flux on the outside, yes, some people dont care bout cleaning off flux , but when wiped off, copper was intact. the only bummer is that my hands are more fuxed up from demo than from the whole install - what a way to start a project.

              I wonder if the water is a little more aggressive in your area is there a water softener? maybe the soft (aggressive) water is leeching some of the impurities from the copper & leaving weak points

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Copper Pinholes

                Originally posted by drtyhands View Post
                They've been approached on the repipe years ago.They know


                I wanna be the guy with a diagnosis and remedy
                Just don't be the guy they blame should there be a leak after your repair.

                Mark
                "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Copper Pinholes

                  Originally posted by drtyhands View Post
                  They've been approached on the repipe years ago.They know


                  I wanna be the guy with a diagnosis and remedy
                  Diagnosis:

                  It was a low quality re-pipe as they did not ream the joints, they installed type M copper and may have used very aggressive flux that did not wash out of the lines - primarily on the cold water piping. Though, it was a plus that they maintained the 1" pipe sizing minus the drops.

                  A quality copper installation that should last for decades must use at least type L copper, have reamed joints, be sized correctly and have been assembled with good flux and solder. It's also important that the copper not come in direct contact with steel (nails, straps, etc)

                  Good flux consists of a flux that isn't overly aggressive. Most flux's out there today, even though neutered compared to yesteryear, are still too aggressive on the copper considering that they don't flush out well.

                  By actual test, the best flux I have come across in terms of not being too aggressive and being able to flush out well is Aquaflux by Nokorode. This flux is not as forgiving for the technician if he overcooks the joints or takes too long in the soldering process.

                  Quality solder (preferably bearing some silver) also plays a role in quality.

                  There is a water quality issue that may also contribute, but this area seems to be shrouded in mystery and "snake oil" remedies. I have researched it often and still can't quite make sense of it. I am not a chemist.

                  Even better, you can offer to re-pipe with Pro Press as there is no solder and no flux - that is if you trust the Pro Press method like I do.

                  Good luck.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Copper Pinholes

                    years ago when we had to switch from nokorode to a water soluble flux. i tried nokorode and was so disappointed that i contacted them and was sent samples to test for them. at the time, they had nothing i liked. they went from the best flux to the worst flux literally overnight

                    what amazes me is the amount of guys here that don't use water soluble flux. i thought it was nationwide for upc and ipc

                    old nokorode i could solder with water in the line still dripping.

                    today's flux, it's difficult to properly solder with any steam being generated.

                    how is it, our supply house don't have good old flux, and others don't have the new junk flux i'm confused and concerned

                    rick.
                    phoebe it is

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Copper Pinholes

                      Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                      years ago when we had to switch from nokorode to a water soluble flux. i tried nokorode and was so disappointed that i contacted them and was sent samples to test for them. at the time, they had nothing i liked. they went from the best flux to the worst flux literally overnight

                      what amazes me is the amount of guys here that don't use water soluble flux. i thought it was nationwide for upc and ipc

                      old nokorode i could solder with water in the line still dripping.

                      today's flux, it's difficult to properly solder with any steam being generated.

                      how is it, our supply house don't have good old flux, and others don't have the new junk flux i'm confused and concerned

                      rick.
                      So true, I used to use the old Nokorode and it made soldering so much easier. I remember my crew of guys complaining to me about it when they had to change to the new stuff.

                      I continued to use it for non-potable copper installations and didn't want to give it up. I had to though when one of my guys grabbed a tub of it I had stashed away and was using it on a job (potable water) and got caught with it. Big flap and it landed right in my lap because I shouldn't have any of it around. So I threw it all out.

                      Admittedly, the new Nokorode Aquaflux is hard to use, especially with MAPP gas and a Turbo Torch. Water soluble Everflux is what I now consider forgiving - though this is relative.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Copper Pinholes

                        wow, i'll talk to the inspectors bout flux. thanks guys, learned a vauable lesson from this forum. i pulled a tub of flux off the shelf, and its hercules brand, climate smooth, self cleaning, soldering paste (from fergeson), but the only ingrediant listed is a warning that it contains zinc chloride. i know chlorine corrodes copper, but we've done quite a few re-models over the years when the original plumber didn't bother to wipe the flux off the pipe, and it didnt appear to have any corrosion - even with m

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Copper Pinholes

                          how did all that old copper survive for all those years using that bad old oil base flux? i actually learned to use acid as flux. a lot of years ago. breid..............

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Copper Pinholes

                            bummer, now you all think im a hack. I'll look into the new flux and thanks for the lesson

                            Bryan

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Copper Pinholes

                              Bryan dont beat yourself up too much. If I am correct most of the guys here are here because they care and want to impart information to help us all. So further to your issues with Copper pipe has anyone experienced what is called "blue water", copper corrosion or other.

                              I attended a seminar several years ago and it was most informative. The Copper Manufacturers along with a heap of scientists gave presentations and answered questions. Of course they held back but then again being a Plumber and understanding what I was doing I figured they would only tell teh audience so much. Another case of "you cant handle the truth" syndrome. So I hope we may be able to get further here than where they left off years ago.

                              Open to all for information

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X