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  • #31
    Re: Brass Parts?

    Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
    "That's pre-flood clutter...."

    Thank you, thank you, thank you. That's why I started the thread and am moving to all brass connections.

    J.C.
    I had a call yesterday where the lady said her toilet "exploded". I thought maybe it was another flushmate incident. It turns out the Fluidmaster 400a had broken at its base (in the tank) and the water started surging from the top of the tank...especially when she took the lid off and it shot to the ceiling.
    That's the 3rd one I've seen do that.
    Yes, I saw remnants of an old chlorine tab in the tank.
    Pictures tomorrow.
    "Man will do many things to get himself loved, he will do all things to get himself envied." Mark Twain

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Brass Parts?

      I've got tons of old brass ballcock locknuts and even a bunch of Mansfield 10 and 11" fill valves. I can't move them to save my life.

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Brass Parts?

        Originally posted by travisdecpn View Post
        I've got tons of old brass ballcock locknuts and even a bunch of Mansfield 10 and 11" fill valves. I can't move them to save my life.
        They sell them for .05 cents a piece here. What'll you take for all of them?

        J.C.

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Brass Parts?

          Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
          They sell them for .05 cents a piece here. What'll you take for all of them?

          J.C.
          Haha, maybe that's why I can't sell them...To be honest I think we were getting about $10 for the fill valves and I was just giving the nuts away if someone need one. I don't know how we ended up with so much old inventory, I guess my dad found a "deal" from some vender going out of business.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Brass Parts?

            Originally posted by SlimTim View Post
            Funny, I went on this call the day after J.C. posted this thread.
            Every room flooded (and this is just two days after we received 9 INCHES of rain).
            I don't normally leave the tag on the supply but I thought maybe the insurance adjuster would want to see the nsf symbol. Probably not, but from the looks of the next picture it didn't matter anyway. (That's pre-flood clutter)
            I have seen a ton of those failures where the nut splits like that. Without exception they are always caused by the installer over tightening the nut. The nuts are suppose to be hand tight and a quarter turn. Usually when I see these failures I also see wrench marks which means they were over tightened.

            Mark
            "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

            I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Brass Parts?

              Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
              I have seen a ton of those failures where the nut splits like that. Without exception they are always caused by the installer over tightening the nut. The nuts are suppose to be hand tight and a quarter turn. Usually when I see these failures I also see wrench marks which means they were over tightened.

              Mark
              Now think about this Mark. If your writing a report on a failure or whatever....

              What constitutes hand tight? What if I've got that awesome power like Ben displayed as he slammed Rick's arm down? I'd be "hand tightening" and bustin' nuts all the time.

              No science in hand tight. Need a torque spec and special wrench. Welcome to the world of litigation.

              J.C.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Brass Parts?

                Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                Now think about this Mark. If your writing a report on a failure or whatever....

                What constitutes hand tight? What if I've got that awesome power like Ben displayed as he slammed Rick's arm down? I'd be "hand tightening" and bustin' nuts all the time.

                No science in hand tight. Need a torque spec and special wrench. Welcome to the world of litigation.

                J.C.
                I wish I had the ability to say for sure what the failure was by just looking at it. Instead there are special Failure Analysis Engineers who put the pieces under an electronic microscope and look at them under a magnification in the thousands. At that magnification they can tell what type of crack it is and what caused it. They can also look at the color of the crack and get a feel for how long the nut has been cracked.

                I'm not sure you would break one at hand tight and a full turn but when you see wrench marks dug into the nut it is probably hand tight and a bunch of turns.

                Mark
                "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Brass Parts?

                  Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                  I wish I had the ability to say for sure what the failure was by just looking at it. Instead there are special Failure Analysis Engineers who put the pieces under an electronic microscope and look at them under a magnification in the thousands. At that magnification they can tell what type of crack it is and what caused it. They can also look at the color of the crack and get a feel for how long the nut has been cracked.

                  I'm not sure you would break one at hand tight and a full turn but when you see wrench marks dug into the nut it is probably hand tight and a bunch of turns.

                  Mark
                  I won't sugar coat it, I have contempt for them. I'd like to know the percentage of how often something is found in favor of the client.

                  And even if a person put the nut on with a wrench and a cheater bar, the term "hand tight" has too much vagueness to assess blame. What happens when you put it on "hand tight" plus a 1/4 turn and you have a small leak? Then you give it another 1/4 turn and it stops? Then if anything goes wrong there are you responsible for the million dollars of damage? I bet those Failure Analysis Engineers will say so. What's the torque of a 100lb. woman's "hand tight" ability vs. a 220 lb. man's? To many variables to fairly assess.

                  That would be my argument in court. Might make it stick. As always though, it can go every which way.

                  J.C.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Brass Parts?

                    My wife can open the pickle jar when I can't

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Brass Parts?

                      Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post

                      Too many variables to fairly assess.

                      That would be my argument in court. Might make it stick. As always though, it can go every which way.

                      J.C.
                      Not to mention, ANYONE could have come in after you and put another turn on the nut. (Especially if they want new carpet and floors).
                      "Man will do many things to get himself loved, he will do all things to get himself envied." Mark Twain

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Brass Parts?

                        Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                        I won't sugar coat it, I have contempt for them. I'd like to know the percentage of how often something is found in favor of the client.

                        And even if a person put the nut on with a wrench and a cheater bar, the term "hand tight" has too much vagueness to assess blame. What happens when you put it on "hand tight" plus a 1/4 turn and you have a small leak? Then you give it another 1/4 turn and it stops? Then if anything goes wrong there are you responsible for the million dollars of damage? I bet those Failure Analysis Engineers will say so. What's the torque of a 100lb. woman's "hand tight" ability vs. a 220 lb. man's? To many variables to fairly assess.

                        That would be my argument in court. Might make it stick. As always though, it can go every which way.

                        J.C.
                        Most of these cases are the insurance company going after the manufacturer not the installer because the installer is either the HO or unknown. All parties have Experts so it is hardly a one-side discussion. The insurance company wants to be reimbursed for the damages and the manufacture wants to make sure his product preformed as designed.

                        Hand tight is as tight as you can tighten it without a wrench. If that is 10 pounds that's fine if it is 20 pounds that is fine. The idea of these connectors is the sealing surface does not need much more than contact to seal them and the quarter turn is to make sure they don't back off. If they still leak something is wrong with the supply or the shank.

                        There was a time the manufacturer almost always lost because the materials were not compatible with chlorine (WC shanks) or the crimp on the connector failed. Today the process is pretty well figured out so the failure rate on these things from manufacturing has gone way down. The ones I see fail now you can tell by looking at the depth of the gouge on the nut the installer installed it wrench tight not hand tight. There is a major torque value difference between the two.

                        Mark
                        "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                        I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Brass Parts?

                          Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                          Most of these cases are the insurance company going after the manufacturer not the installer because the installer is either the HO or unknown. All parties have Experts so it is hardly a one-side discussion. The insurance company wants to be reimbursed for the damages and the manufacture wants to make sure his product preformed as designed.

                          Hand tight is as tight as you can tighten it without a wrench. If that is 10 pounds that's fine if it is 20 pounds that is fine. The idea of these connectors is the sealing surface does not need much more than contact to seal them and the quarter turn is to make sure they don't back off. If they still leak something is wrong with the supply or the shank.

                          There was a time the manufacturer almost always lost because the materials were not compatible with chlorine (WC shanks) or the crimp on the connector failed. Today the process is pretty well figured out so the failure rate on these things from manufacturing has gone way down. The ones I see fail now you can tell by looking at the depth of the gouge on the nut the installer installed it wrench tight not hand tight. There is a major torque value difference between the two.

                          Mark
                          I do not work with insurers or investigators as you do, but in my limited experience I find the insurers "going after" whoever they can for reimbursement.

                          All parties have experts? Why? Think about that. There should be zero reason for multiple experts. None. An insurer should take the word of the manufacturers expert. Right? And/or a manufacturer should take the word of the insurers expert. Right?

                          Why not? They are "experts" in their field of investigation and it would be a complete waste of resources to employ one when another party already has one assuming they are honest and looking for the true cause of things occurring.

                          It would seem to defy logic and good business practice unless....a business is able to gain something from employing an "expert".

                          I do understand what you're saying and the system (some ). However, investigators and engineers deal in exact in my experience.

                          "Hand Tight" has no exact. Until it does, there is no way to assess cause accurately.

                          Thanks.

                          J.C.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Brass Parts?

                            Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post

                            "Hand Tight" has no exact. Until it does, there is no way to assess cause accurately.

                            Thanks.

                            J.C.
                            Perhaps the manufacturer should reword the instructions to read "Tighten by hand only"
                            "Man will do many things to get himself loved, he will do all things to get himself envied." Mark Twain

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Brass Parts?

                              most new feed line connector nuts that are plastic have a couple wings that assist in the hand tight process, but also have a purpose to show the tell tale signs of channel lock scoring.

                              even the fluidmaster nut has a couple wings now to prevent over stressing.

                              rick.
                              phoebe it is

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Brass Parts?

                                Originally posted by SlimTim View Post
                                Perhaps the manufacturer should reword the instructions to read "Tighten by hand only"
                                They could. But again, that leaves room for un-exactness. And really, discussing it is kind of back-and-forth semantics. Manufacturers want to make the most money. Period. If starting to make things out of plastic and giving directions to "hand tighten" makes the most, that's what they'll do.

                                Remember putting pipe dope on the threads? Better never do that again. Because that will give someone the ability to surpass the magical "hand tight" and cause a failure.

                                We're not responsible, you are!

                                Wonder how many failures we would see if all toilet valves were required to have brass shanks, brass mounting nuts, and brass coupling nuts?

                                If they really cared, that's what Department of Insurers should push for...

                                J.C.

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