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  • #31
    Re: Need the best diagnostic plumber on this one

    i'm telling you, newspaper/ cardboard around the areas of concern. including the neighbor. behind the fridge and under the dishwashers too.

    you need to spot it at the source and not after it came and went.

    you could also pressure test the system and put a gage on it for a leak down test.

    nail holes usually appear and keep on leaking. typically they don't rust and reappear. but a pinhole from a copper line does. especially a hot line that will expand and contract.

    best nail hole was over 10 years on a t-bar ceiling wall angle. shot in with a finish gun over 10 years earlier.

    rick.

    rick.
    phoebe it is

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    • #32
      Re: Need the best diagnostic plumber on this one

      Maybe try filling all fixtures to rim,including the washer on large load.Have paper spread out,then drop all at same time.If able /possible mirrow with adjoining apt. Goodnight.

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      • #33
        Re: Need the best diagnostic plumber on this one

        Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
        i'm telling you, newspaper/ cardboard around the areas of concern. including the neighbor. behind the fridge and under the dishwashers too.

        you need to spot it at the source and not after it came and went.

        you could also pressure test the system and put a gage on it for a leak down test.

        nail holes usually appear and keep on leaking. typically they don't rust and reappear. but a pinhole from a copper line does. especially a hot line that will expand and contract.

        best nail hole was over 10 years on a t-bar ceiling wall angle. shot in with a finish gun over 10 years earlier.

        rick.

        rick.
        I say it is exactly this, a pin hole, or nail hole somewhere. Just had this happen to me about 2 months ago. Installed new water heater, next day customer calls & says water leaking from copper pipe going up to 2nd floor bath. I cut hole in wall of kithen above, & found nail went through water pipe, from baseboard molding. The molding was put up 14 months before. I assume from me turning water off, & back on, the day before to install water heater, broke the rust loose on nail, & started leaking.

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        • #34
          Re: Need the best diagnostic plumber on this one

          The unique neighbors started using ice trays when the ice maker stopped working ...

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          • #35
            Re: Need the best diagnostic plumber on this one

            As Geno said
            "I was going to suggest putting dye down various drain lines to see what line was used when the water appears on the floor. Of course, then you have a stained floor. "

            I realize the staining might be a issue how about using a food color dye might clean up better then one a professional might get from the wholesale.
            Last time I try to fix it myself. Next time I will hire a PROFESSIONAL.

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            • #36
              Re: Need the best diagnostic plumber on this one

              Originally posted by Don the plumber View Post
              I say it is exactly this, a pin hole, or nail hole somewhere. Just had this happen to me about 2 months ago. Installed new water heater, next day customer calls & says water leaking from copper pipe going up to 2nd floor bath. I cut hole in wall of kithen above, & found nail went through water pipe, from baseboard molding. The molding was put up 14 months before. I assume from me turning water off, & back on, the day before to install water heater, broke the rust loose on nail, & started leaking.
              the problem with his leak is it comes and goes. a nail hole doesn't come and go. it might hold out for years and years. but once it starts to rust out, it continues to leak.

              the post has mentioned that this leak comes and goes. i don't see a nail hole coming and going. but a pin hole in the hot can crud over with minerals and temperature change.

              the fridge and the neighbors strange habits are sounding more interesting right now. is the ice maker line turned off at the wall?

              the internal poly line that runs through the door hinge and behind the lower kick panel will crack. this only leaks when the ice maker or door water is asking for water. not continually.

              rick.
              phoebe it is

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              • #37
                Re: Need the best diagnostic plumber on this one

                The newspaper Rick talks about should have been the first thing you tried because it helps you track what direction the water is traveling. If all of the water lines are overhead it doesn't sound line it is going to be a slab leak. However, I would drill a 5/16" hole through the slab at the dishwasher and see if there is any moisture under the slab. I tend to believe a DWV leak would be more likely.

                As far as pinhole leaks coming and going, trust me they do. I had a big 10,000 sq ft home where there was a lot of damage to the hardwood floor in the kitchen by the dishwasher. While doing electronic leak locating I would find the area I thought it was and then the noise would go away. I finally decided to open the wall in the area I thought it was and as I pulled the nail out of the baseboard water shot across the room. The leak was 20' away from the damaged floor but was running under the floor underlayment. For some reason as I walked on the floor the pressure on the nail changed and the leak sealed up.

                Mark
                "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

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                • #38
                  Re: Need the best diagnostic plumber on this one

                  Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                  i'm telling you, newspaper/ cardboard around the areas of concern. including the neighbor. behind the fridge and under the dishwashers too.

                  you need to spot it at the source and not after it came and went.

                  rick.
                  Rick, didn't he already post that he was standing there and saw the water coming from re: the wall or floor? I'm under the impression that he doesn't want to just start busting up the floor/wall/slab right there without knowing what to look for.

                  I personally would have got the ridgid seesnake out and inserted it into a small hole I would make in the wall just above where the water manifested. If the plate wasn't wet on top, then I would start excavating the floor.

                  Actually, this particular problem might be helped by using a thermal imaging camera. If the wall is wet, but not visibly wet, it's highly likely that the wet spots would show up at a temperature difference from the rest of the wall. (Probably lower temperature, unless the water is an active nearby hot water leak.)
                  Time flies like an arrow.

                  Fruit flies like a banana.

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                  • #39
                    Re: Need the best diagnostic plumber on this one

                    Originally posted by geno gardner View Post
                    Actually, this particular problem might be helped by using a thermal imaging camera. If the wall is wet, but not visibly wet, it's highly likely that the wet spots would show up at a temperature difference from the rest of the wall. (Probably lower temperature, unless the water is an active nearby hot water leak.)
                    A good thermal imaging camera might just tell the tail. I also am with Rick as to what is up with the neighbor's icemaker internal line. Since the neighbor does not use the icemaker now...why not ask if you can disconnect a wire to the icemaker solenoid and see if the water goes away.

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                    • #40
                      Re: Need the best diagnostic plumber on this one

                      Gentlemen, sorry for the delay in replying. We have finally discovered the source of the leak. It is the neighbor's dishwasher. The mistake I made was asking the customer to ask the neighbor to run the dishwasher before I left the shop to go to the job. Upon arrival at the job, after I exhausted all of the customer's appliances, I went into the neighbor's home and flushed all the w/c, filled and drained the sinks etc,etc. I opened the dishwasher and I could feel the heat from the inside of the d/w as I opened it up. I assumed she ran it. WRONG! She had just turned it on when I was walking back and forth between the two units checking each action I did against water entering next door. An hour and a half or two hours later, while I'm trying to figure this whole thing out, the water appeared. (after it completed it's cycle) When I saw the water I immediately began pulling the bottom of the cabinet off as it was coming from there but it appeared to come more from the linoleum than the wall. But.... apparently it's appearance was deceiving. I should have done everything myself and not relied on anyone else to do it. It would cost more in initial time but then I would have saved several hours of research time and had a diagnosis on the second visit.
                      Thank you all for your participation and ideas. I did learn a tremendous amount of ideas and methods from ALL of your responses. Should I ever run into another customer with a crazy, cheap neighbor and a poor taste in flooring, I'll know exactly where to start!
                      Thanks again,
                      Heath

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                      • #41
                        Re: Need the best diagnostic plumber on this one

                        i find that you need to do things yourself and not trust the ones you have doubts about.

                        glad you found it.

                        rick.
                        phoebe it is

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Need the best diagnostic plumber on this one

                          Rick,
                          Your right. Lesson learned. I have to say I would have never thought of the pinhole in copper intermittent leak. But it does make sense. I'm sure it would be very rare to ever happen, but now you have my curiosity up. I guess theoretically it could happen in both but have you seen this in both rigid and soft copper or just soft?

                          Heath

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                          • #43
                            Re: Need the best diagnostic plumber on this one

                            pin holes are very common in hot water return lines and of course flux left on and in tubing that is very aggressive. flux tends to flush with the hot better than the cold. and of course the stuff left outside the joint and running down is an issue down the road. laco flux was about as bad as it comes. nokorode was far less aggressive.

                            pin holes start off so small that it doesn't actually leak to the point of damage. then it tends to seal and crust over. later it will reappear generally with a vengeance.

                            very easy to see when the piping is exposed overhead parking garages.

                            when it's underground or concealed, it's a guessing game as far as a visual inspection.

                            rick.
                            phoebe it is

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