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  • New house recirc system?

    I'm bidding a new house piping job and they want to install a Rinnai propane tankless water heater. How are you guys piping them as to NOT reduce the warranty from 12 to 3 yrs? I see installing a small tank heater as defeating the whole purpose of installing the tankless in the first place. Should I install a 6 gallon storage tank in a loop and an on demand system? i.e. the bathroom light switches activate it? The lines are all going to be installed lower then the water heater so a non-pump system will not work.

  • #2
    Re: New house recirc system?

    I know someone who has a tankless water heater and wants to install a recirculating system as well. I am not considering a storage tank but instead a small six gallon electric tank heater that would be fed from the tankless unit. What type of piping would you be using in your area for this?

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    • #3
      Re: New house recirc system?

      CPVC.....and I am aware of the small electric tank method, they have it in the Rinnai book. I just think that it's kinda crazy to run a small electric after going through the expense of the tankless. It kinda defeats the whole purpose of trying to be "green".

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      • #4
        Re: New house recirc system?

        the 6 -10 gallon 1500 watt electric tank is the way to go. you circ. back into the tank and the tankless feeds into the cold side of the electric tank. basically the tank will supply the instant hot and initial hot. it also acts as a blending/mixing tank for the tankless. once the tankless comes up to temp. the electric will just provide the mixing and the heat will come from the tankless.

        just looked at a job friday that the plumber was clueless on and they installed a 50 tank with no gas/ electric.

        there is no savings when using an electric heater to work your circ system. but if you want instant hot with a tankless and don't want to wear out the tankless heat exchanger, then you need a small electric tank.

        rick.
        phoebe it is

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: New house recirc system?

          Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
          the 6 -10 gallon 1500 watt electric tank is the way to go. you circ. back into the tank and the tankless feeds into the cold side of the electric tank. basically the tank will supply the instant hot and initial hot. it also acts as a blending/mixing tank for the tankless. once the tankless comes up to temp. the electric will just provide the mixing and the heat will come from the tankless.

          just looked at a job friday that the plumber was clueless on and they installed a 50 tank with no gas/ electric.

          there is no savings when using an electric heater to work your circ system. but if you want instant hot with a tankless and don't want to wear out the tankless heat exchanger, then you need a small electric tank.

          rick.
          Why not install an 80 gal electric on the recirc, then the tankless would hardly ever come on, & it would keep that heat exchanger, & tankless in great shape for many years to come?
          Just messin with ya Rick, but I just can't see yet, where these tankless units are economically feasible, for residential. 1 service call, or problem, & all your supposed savings is wiped out, & then some, along with unhappy customer. JMHO

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: New house recirc system?

            Originally posted by Don the plumber View Post
            Why not install an 80 gal electric on the recirc, then the tankless would hardly ever come on, & it would keep that heat exchanger, & tankless in great shape for many years to come?
            Just messin with ya Rick, but I just can't see yet, where these tankless units are economically feasible, for residential. 1 service call, or problem, & all your supposed savings is wiped out, & then some, along with unhappy customer. JMHO
            don, your preaching to the choir

            i only gave him advise to fix his problem.

            you, i and 90% of the forum all know that there is no savings on a tankless. i'm waiting for all the older tankless to take a dump and the public finds out how expensive it is to replace or service.

            the unit i have at home was installed 1.5 years ago as a true forum experiment. the $5.00 a month gas savings i can attribute to the lack of a standing pilot lite.
            joey hates it, i tolerate it, but doing laundry with hot water is a joke.

            rick.
            phoebe it is

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: New house recirc system?

              Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
              don, your preaching to the choir

              i only gave him advise to fix his problem.

              you, i and 90% of the forum all know that there is no savings on a tankless. i'm waiting for all the older tankless to take a dump and the public finds out how expensive it is to replace or service.

              the unit i have at home was installed 1.5 years ago as a true forum experiment. the $5.00 a month gas savings i can attribute to the lack of a standing pilot lite.
              joey hates it, i tolerate it, but doing laundry with hot water is a joke.

              rick.
              I knew that. Should of clarified myself better, to show that I was just ranting in general. Couldn't agree with you more.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: New house recirc system?

                I'm proud to say that I've managed to give every customer who's ever asked me about installing a tankless heater enough information about installation and material costs that they've decided to stay with a tank.

                I have had to repair a few that came with their houses though.
                Time flies like an arrow.

                Fruit flies like a banana.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: New house recirc system?

                  Originally posted by geno gardner View Post
                  I'm proud to say that I've managed to give every customer who's ever asked me about installing a tankless heater enough information about installation and material costs that they've decided to stay with a tank.

                  I have had to repair a few that came with their houses though.
                  And that makes absolutely no sense. The customer wanted one, perhaps could have easily paid for one, thier application was perfect for one and in the end you both lose.

                  You left at least $1000 behind in Your earnings per unit.

                  I can hear the wife and kids whining now when you tell them money is tight.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: New house recirc system?

                    Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                    don, your preaching to the choir

                    i only gave him advise to fix his problem.

                    you, i and 90% of the forum all know that there is no savings on a tankless. i'm waiting for all the older tankless to take a dump and the public finds out how expensive it is to replace or service.

                    the unit i have at home was installed 1.5 years ago as a true forum experiment. the $5.00 a month gas savings i can attribute to the lack of a standing pilot lite.
                    joey hates it, i tolerate it, but doing laundry with hot water is a joke.

                    rick.
                    As I recall Rick, from one of your earlier posts, you also installed one of the cheapest piece of crap Tankless out there. No wonder yours sucks

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: New house recirc system?

                      [QUTE=Lee H;299894]As I recall Rick, from one of your earlier posts, you also installed one of the cheapest piece of crap Tankless out there. No wonder yours sucks[/QUOTE]

                      really, please remind me what that might be. my memory is failing with my old age and you know more than i do anyways

                      rick.
                      phoebe it is

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: New house recirc system?

                        On the other side of the debate, I have been installing tankless water heaters since 1996, Rinnai mostly. Every customer I have installed these for have been very happy with the performance.

                        Sometimes it's not about the savings but more so about the volume of supply. One customer in particular comes to mind that has a stripper poll in the living room. They also like to take very very long showers. Another factor is the life of the unit. Now in days if you get 8 years out of a standard water heater it's par for the course. The tankless are looking at 25 years. So you have now replaced your tanked water heater atleast twice and getting ready for a third. If the tank splits, you are done...if the exchanger splits, change it out on quality units and the unit lives on.

                        Yes there can be a savings overall without question. However, if you work and live by new construction mentality worring only about the next 5 years...then forget it. I on the other hand do not build 5 year structures. I work with homes and the families that have needs there in and I have had great success with tankless units. They have made us many dollars to date and will continue in the future. I thank all you guys that turn off your customer and send them my way to take care of their needs.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: New house recirc system?

                          Originally posted by Kevin Jones View Post
                          On the other side of the debate, I have been installing tankless water heaters since 1996, Rinnai mostly. Every customer I have installed these for have been very happy with the performance.

                          Sometimes it's not about the savings but more so about the volume of supply. One customer in particular comes to mind that has a stripper poll in the living room. They also like to take very very long showers. Another factor is the life of the unit. Now in days if you get 8 years out of a standard water heater it's par for the course. The tankless are looking at 25 years. So you have now replaced your tanked water heater atleast twice and getting ready for a third. If the tank splits, you are done...if the exchanger splits, change it out on quality units and the unit lives on.

                          Yes there can be a savings overall without question. However, if you work and live by new construction mentality worring only about the next 5 years...then forget it. I on the other hand do not build 5 year structures. I work with homes and the families that have needs there in and I have had great success with tankless units. They have made us many dollars to date and will continue in the future. I thank all you guys that turn off your customer and send them my way to take care of their needs.
                          And those 3 tank water heaters that were installed in a span of 25yrs was still cheaper than the 1 tankless unit. And alot less service calls I'll bet too.
                          Lets face it, not one of us here is going to talk someone like you out of tankless, & you are not going to talk the tank guys, into tankless, which is fine. But why do you tankless guroos, always claim thousands of dollars left on the table. I simply put in a tank, that 99% of the customers want, simply due to cost, will be problem free for average of 10 to 12yrs (even though you claim 8yrs) & move on to the next job. I don't go home, & sit around after I install a tank heater. So the money you guys claim is left on the table, has no merit, IMO.
                          As far as worrying about the next 5yrs, thats not up to me thats up to the customer. If they are going to move, planning on moving, jobs are in jeopardy, ect.... they don't want a 25yr investment.
                          Maybe you guys are all just such great plumbers, that only millionaires call you? I'm an average joe that works for the average joe,(and above average joe many times too).But it works for me, & I make above average living.
                          If it works for you, then thats great, but I know my customers, & they don't want or need tankless.
                          Last edited by Don the plumber; 06-08-2010, 09:45 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Re: New house recirc system?

                            why is it that all the consults/ expert jobs have involved tankless water heaters that don't work as expected

                            i'm yet to be called on 1 tank heater that didn't perform as normal.

                            problem is there are too many uneducated tankless installers that don't have a clue what they're selling or installing

                            pretty difficult to screw up a tank install

                            pretty easy to screw up a tankless install

                            my supply house does not warranty a tankless exchange. you need to deal with the manufacturer for credit.

                            please explain the 15 year old 100 gallon 199,000 btu heater i just changed last week in an apartment building that was never serviced. tell me a tankless would do that and supply enough water for a 12 unit building.

                            rick.
                            phoebe it is

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: New house recirc system?

                              I'm installing a water heater for my 82yr old neighbor today who lives alone, & whose main income is social security. Hmmmmm......... I wonder if I should try to sell her a 25yr investment.

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