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  • #61
    Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

    we got ham sandwiches, chips and Pepsi. It was the Pepsi that did me in. I hate Pepsi
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    • #62
      Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

      We had soda and pizza as well.

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      • #63
        Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

        Actually tankless heaters have been around for a long long time. Look into ELM Aquastar and Paloma Pak for starters. I may be mistaken but I believe Ruud was makin one over 80 years ago.
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        • #64
          Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

          Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
          Actually tankless heaters have been around for a long long time. Look into ELM Aquastar and Paloma Pak for starters. I may be mistaken but I believe Ruud was makin one over 80 years ago.
          You're correct for the most part. My father told me when he was a kid, he used to have to go down and light the pilot on this coil to get hot water. (before my time)

          What I was saying was..this Noritz salesman was saying that these types of tankless only been here for the last 5 or 6 years.

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          • #65
            Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

            they also gave us an opportunity to buy 1 heater at a special price. this was their way to get you to try it.

            3 years later i finally put it in my house and joey hates it. couldn't sell it as there was not 1 situation that panned out.

            a point of use tankless would make sense. such as a master bathroom with a spa.

            only took 2 years to install the bidet seat i bought for christmas. that one she likes

            rick.
            phoebe it is

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            • #66
              Re: Electric tankless water heaters

              Silly people, a BTU is a BTU, a KW is a KW

              Whether tankless electric or gas, it requires the same amount of energy to raise the temp of water, energy comes as a cost of a therm or KW.

              Knowing a gallon of water is about 8.33 lbs.

              If you wish to raise one gallon of water 70 degrees (50 to 120) on a tankless, it's:

              1 gal x 8.33 x 70 degrees = 583 BTU's required.
              (That's about 0.006 of 1 Therm of N/G, or 0.1708 of a KW of Electric)

              To keep it simple, if you had a 5 gallon tank at 120 degrees, and used 1 gallon of it and replaced that water with 1 gallon of 50 degree water, the tank water temp would now be:

              4 x 120 = 480 + 50 = 530 / 5 = 106 blended tank water.

              To raise the tank from 106 to 120 requires you would need to raise the temp of 5 gallons 14 degrees

              5 gal x 8.33 x 14 degrees = 583 BTU's required.

              So you see if the same amount of water is used, the same BTU's are required.

              This is simple math I taught students years ago, so I have to chuckle every time I hear someone state that the high firing rate of a gas tankless or the KW requirement of an electric tankless use more energy. I guess at that given period it might, but the end result of instantaneous usage versus tank recovery is the same net BTU requirement, thus energy required is the same.

              Electric tankless versus tank net is basically equal since standby loss on tanks are minimal and resistance heating both have the same efficiency. On gas however, the tankless combustion efficiencies are much better, and standby loss of a gas tank can be tremendous, thus gas tankless is more efficient, no argument to be made there.
              Last edited by Lee H; 07-03-2010, 12:41 PM.

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              • #67
                Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

                Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                Actually tankless heaters have been around for a long long time. Look into ELM Aquastar and Paloma Pak for starters. I may be mistaken but I believe Ruud was makin one over 80 years ago.
                "If I'm correct, tankless has been in this country for the past 5-6 years"

                Yes, my first tankles as a Bosch "170" not so efficient but endless hot water and that was in 1985. I replaced it with a Rinnai after about 11 years, still working but wanted a bgger/better/more eficient unit. I have seen them date back to 1890 here, but with temp control, I would venture to say somewhere around mid 70's with gas.

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                • #68
                  Re: Electric tankless water heaters

                  Originally posted by Flux View Post
                  You're correct for the most part. My father told me when he was a kid, he used to have to go down and light the pilot on this coil to get hot water. (before my time)

                  What I was saying was..this Noritz salesman was saying that these types of tankless only been here for the last 5 or 6 years.
                  Noritz entered the US market in 2002, so they are a newbie, with exception to Navien, a new Chinese one called Hometec, Quietside, Eternal, and many more to come I'm sure. But the Jap platform that is the basic design of the low 80% range have been here since about 1990, led by Rinnai and Takagi.

                  All these gas tankless fighting over a 400,000 a year piece market, with all of them having their eyes on the 4.2 million gas tank market.

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                  • #69
                    Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

                    good examples lee

                    i think the debate is more that electrical cost per kilowatt hour compared to what we pay for gas therms is 1 part of the debate.

                    the other part is that running a 3/4'' or 1'' gas line from a gas meter is much less costly than upgrading an electrical panel to supply the 120 plus amps that a small 3 gpm unit requires. no less a 10gpm unit

                    the gas company will upgrade a meter for free out here if you add a pool or in the case a 199,000 but tankless if necessary.

                    the electric company will not change out your service panel. and i'm not sure they will run a new larger drop to the house for free either.

                    out here my gas bill was under $15 a month with a tank heater. now with tankless it is $10 a month. the biggest saving is due to the lack of a standing pilot light. i won't bother adding in the minimal electrical cost to operate the tankless as it's minimal i believe, but it's a cost that will make the $5 savings even smaller.

                    rick.
                    phoebe it is

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: Electric tankless water heaters

                      Originally posted by Lee H View Post
                      Noritz entered the US market in 2002, so they are a newbie, with exception to Navien, a new Chinese one called Hometec, Quietside, Eternal, and many more to come I'm sure. But the Jap platform that is the basic design of the low 80% range have been here since about 1990, led by Rinnai and Takagi.

                      All these gas tankless fighting over a 400,000 a year piece market, with all of them having their eyes on the 4.2 million gas tank market.
                      I could of swore the Noritz guy said they were here first...how typical. lol All I remember was him comparing Noritz to Europe and what was going on here.

                      After he dodged my questions, I kind of tuned him out, and was burping up pizza and soda for the rest of the class.

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                      • #71
                        Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

                        The unit my friend has is a Seisco not sure if it is the RA28 or RA32. The unit has 4 chambers and not 3. He says it is 90 amps but it actually must be 120 or 133 amps. The unit has been in service for 4 years. He has had zero failures with the unit and is happy with the performance. He stated they have no issues with temperature fluctuation as long as only one point of use is in operation. It does cool down a bit with 2 showers. If he wanted more flow then he would need to install another unit, which is what was said at the beginning. He also said that is electric is next to nothing. All in all this user of this tankless electric water heater is very happy and would recommend the unit.

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                        • #72
                          Re: Electric tank-less water heaters

                          another factor on electric is if the power provider has a demand charge.

                          http://www.businessdictionary.com/de...nd-charge.html
                          demand charge Definition: Energy charge based on the highest demand, during any 15 to 30 minute interval that is measured in a billing period. Demand charge may be a fixed charge per kilowatt, or divided into rate brackets: the highest charge on the first bracket, and lesser charges on the following brackets.
                          on much residential many do not, but if you have a large or high amp entrance many of the companies also add a demand charge. one gets charge on the highest amount of amps pulled at one time besides the amount of used,

                          so if you have an appliance that demands a large amount of power for even just a little bit of time it may end up costing one a large amount in demand charges, and tank-less units would defiantly add to this area.
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                          • #73
                            Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

                            Originally posted by Kevin Jones View Post
                            The unit my friend has is a Seisco not sure if it is the RA28 or RA32. The unit has 4 chambers and not 3. He says it is 90 amps but it actually must be 120 or 133 amps. The unit has been in service for 4 years. He has had zero failures with the unit and is happy with the performance. He stated they have no issues with temperature fluctuation as long as only one point of use is in operation. It does cool down a bit with 2 showers. If he wanted more flow then he would need to install another unit, which is what was said at the beginning. He also said that is electric is next to nothing. All in all this user of this tankless electric water heater is very happy and would recommend the unit.

                            Their site leaves a lot to be desired but here is a PDF with some specs.

                            http://seisco.info/pdf/Space.pdf

                            Mark
                            "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                            I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

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                            • #74
                              Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

                              Checked it out YEARS ago. Not a recommended item.

                              J.C.

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                              • #75
                                Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

                                1600 square foot house with 2 bathrooms and 2 occupants. hot water delivery is 3 gpm at a 67 degree rise.

                                please tell me how they can run a shower and a laundry or dishwasher at the same time

                                i guess they can shower together in the same shower

                                but honestly, 3gpm for a whole house is a joke.

                                at least my customer has the same specs and it was only a 500' home with 1 occupant.

                                can you imagine if they don't have anti scald / pressure balance valves and the laundry kicks in or the dishwasher. it would sound like murder when they get hit by the cold water when the hot drops off

                                lets put the electrical into perspective.

                                a free standing range requires a 50 amp outlet at 230-240 volts and a dryer requires a 30 amp 230-240 outlet.

                                so this little 3 gpm heater basically requires the combined energy demand of 2 ranges with all the elements running and a dryer running at the same time. probably even more as the outlet is a 50 amp, but the demand is more like 80% of that.

                                like i said, getting enough power into the house and the panel to supply it is ridiculous.

                                are there some electricians that can shed some real life experiences on this


                                rick.
                                phoebe it is

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