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Electric tankless waterheaters

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  • #76
    Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

    I don't seem to recall saying one unit will do it all. I believe I have suggested the power demands will be absurd for residential and that more than one unit will be required. I am sharing their experience with that one unit. They have been happy with it. I really don't get into who is showering together with the customer. I also did say there is a temperature drop when more than one point of service is used.

    Honestly to reach the 10 gpm level it would take 3 to 4 units and 600 to 800 amps of service. This can be done with gas much more easily.

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    • #77
      Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

      Originally posted by Kevin Jones View Post
      I don't seem to recall saying one unit will do it all. I believe I have suggested the power demands will be absurd for residential and that more than one unit will be required. I am sharing their experience with that one unit. They have been happy with it. I really don't get into who is showering together with the customer. I also did say there is a temperature drop when more than one point of service is used.

      Honestly to reach the 10 gpm level it would take 3 to 4 units and 600 to 800 amps of service. This can be done with gas much more easily.
      Just a couple of things Kevin. They may be happy with it but in my experience they will be in the extreme minority. 1% or less.

      And another observation I've seen is that people will adjust their "use behavior" to an installed item.

      Example: Large tank, high btus, they'll run multiple fixtures at the same time. And can! Without even thinking about it.

      Tankless, they'll start adjusting their behavior to it's performance. This is using hot water, that is using hot water, I'll wait to shower.

      And finally, people are more likely to be "happy" with their purchase and decision when they make the decision. But, when pressed, the truth is they often are not happy. They just can't admit they are unhappy because with all of their research and education, they were wrong in their final decision.

      J.C.

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      • #78
        Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

        J.C. I agree that people will adjust behavior to adapt to a given situation. That being said...if the system is designed to maximum flow rates correctly then there will be no issue of not having hot water. There will be no modification of behavior.

        The demands in this case would call for an insane amount of power at a given moment. I agree a tanked system may make more sense. One draw back of a tank is, well the tank. If you only have room for a 50 gallon water heater and you have a 90+gallon Roman tub, how did that person adapt to finally take a full bath? With the same space a tankless can do that job.

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        • #79
          Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

          Originally posted by Kevin Jones View Post
          J.C. I agree that people will adjust behavior to adapt to a given situation. That being said...if the system is designed to maximum flow rates correctly then there will be no issue of not having hot water. There will be no modification of behavior.

          The demands in this case would call for an insane amount of power at a given moment. I agree a tanked system may make more sense. One draw back of a tank is, well the tank. If you only have room for a 50 gallon water heater and you have a 90+gallon Roman tub, how did that person adapt to finally take a full bath? With the same space a tankless can do that job.
          Every installation can and often is slightly different. A point of use tankless may be the exact thing needed to for the situation you describe. But not always a whole house unit. And it doesn't necessarily mean that is the only solution-or even the best solution-for the scenario.

          But you know this.

          You look at what the jobsite offers to the situation, customer demands, and budget.

          I've installed tankless without complaints. I've also installed tanks in higher volume situations..... without complaints.

          Just have to assess every situation on a case by case basis. With that said, I find tank systems to be more flexible to the customers' happiness.

          J.C.

          Comment


          • #80
            Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

            Originally posted by Kevin Jones View Post
            Ok master think fast...how many kilowatts? I have the same type system on my attorneys home and it works fine. If it didn't? His wife would tell him and he would let me know.

            I can play power too master in your own mind.
            i guess your attorney is happy with 3gpm. my attorney clients would be suing me, the manufacture, the electrician and the power company if they ended up with a new electrical panel and only 3gpm.

            their bidet uses 3gpm

            you suggested 10gpm for the o.p. and gave examples, yet your friend the attorney only has 3gpm and the wife is happy

            i guess she's married to an attorney from the country

            the big city attorneys wives need more than 3gpm

            but both your unit and my unit have the same specs and produce the same amount of hot water. amazing how wattage works. 1 watt in and .9 watts out of usable heat. you can't get more out than you put in.

            point of use would be much better. but even with a 600-800 amp panel, the power company is not going to be able to supply the house without a dedicated transformer out here.

            rick.
            phoebe it is

            Comment


            • #81
              Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

              Rick first of all I did not install the unit. I will service the unit when it fails to perform. They also have low flow shower heads so if the unit is producing 3-3.5 gpm to a 2-2.5 gpm shower head the math works.

              They said they are happy...I will be sure to let them know that according to the master there happiness is worthy of the Beverly Hillbillies.

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              • #82
                Re: Electric tankless water heaters

                Originally posted by Flux View Post
                I could of swore the Noritz guy said they were here first...how typical. lol All I remember was him comparing Noritz to Europe and what was going on here.

                After he dodged my questions, I kind of tuned him out, and was burping up pizza and soda for the rest of the class.
                They tend to do that. It's been my experience, unless a factory guy is doing the class, and not a manufacturer rep, your wasting your time going.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Re: Electric tankless water heaters

                  Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                  good examples lee

                  i think the debate is more that electrical cost per kilowatt hour compared to what we pay for gas therms is 1 part of the debate. rick.
                  Perhaps so, but even in this postings it mention "spinning the meter" "using lots of energy"

                  Gas or electric, same amount of water used, on all tankless versus tank whether it spins the meter fast and up front now or slowly later, it still ends up at the same point with same energy used in the end, only difference is the combustion efficiencies and that being between 25-40% on gas depending on tankless model.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

                    correct lee, but spinning a meter slowly doesn't require a large panel upgrade. spinning a meter fast and furious does require a large investment in switchgear.

                    in the end you produce hot water.

                    but to run 120 amps for 3 gpm of hot water is nuts.

                    at least with a tankless gas unit, you're getting 6-9 gpm with a very small investment in a 3/4''-1'' gas line.

                    of course before tankless, we all got by with a standard 1/2'' gas line for a residential tank heater.

                    or a 30 amp breaker for a residential electric tank heater.

                    remember that our plumbing codes for water are sized in theory to supply all fixtures running at the same time with both hot and cold water with a minimum pressure of 15psi.

                    tankless don't take that into account

                    rick.
                    phoebe it is

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

                      It's the customer's money. Let them spend it as they wish.

                      Tankless gets a bad wrap from installers that don't size the system for maximum flow rate demands. It is not the unit's fault that unrealistic expectations are suggested and then not delivered because the price tag in our mind was to much to install the correct amount of unit.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

                        Originally posted by Kevin Jones View Post
                        It's the customer's money. Let them spend it as they wish.

                        Tankless gets a bad wrap from installers that don't size the system for maximum flow rate demands. It is not the unit's fault that unrealistic expectations are suggested and then not delivered because the price tag in our mind was to much to install the correct amount of unit.
                        right and wrong.

                        at what point do the city plumbing inspectors start enforcing the code?

                        especially in new construction with plan check.

                        as far as i know, codes were not rewritten when tankless came out to address the minimum pressure and supply requirements.

                        i'll see what my current code book mentions.

                        rick.
                        phoebe it is

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

                          I think you will find the codes have deferred to manufacturer specs.

                          In doing so the manufacturer has provided rating charts for the unit based on delta T variations. It is solely upto the installer to read and understand these ratings. It is solely upto the installer to determine the max flow rate of the system in question. If that is done right then the system will meet the intent of the codes.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

                            Originally posted by Kevin Jones View Post
                            I think you will find the codes have deferred to manufacturer specs.

                            In doing so the manufacturer has provided rating charts for the unit based on delta T variations. It is solely upto the installer to read and understand these ratings. It is solely upto the installer to determine the max flow rate of the system in question. If that is done right then the system will meet the intent of the codes.
                            And often make it a much more expensive install, more maintenance, & about the same cost to operate as if tanked.

                            J.C.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

                              It's the customer's money. Let them spend it as they wish.

                              They may have a tree they hug everyday. Who are we to say?

                              If the customer wants tankless then that is what they want. The failure to supply the proper amount of unit is not the fault of the equipment. The installer takes ownership of that problem.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

                                Originally posted by Kevin Jones View Post
                                It's the customer's money. Let them spend it as they wish.

                                They may have a tree they hug everyday. Who are we to say?

                                If the customer wants tankless then that is what they want. The failure to supply the proper amount of unit is not the fault of the equipment. The installer takes ownership of that problem.
                                I agree. However, when I tell them the price, performance, maintenance, & savings of tankless vs. tank-95% or more go with the tank.

                                I DO NOT try to sway them to the tank. Just go over the facts of units and show benefits & drawbacks of tanks and tankless.

                                J.C.

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