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  • #91
    Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

    Originally posted by Kevin Jones View Post
    I think you will find the codes have deferred to manufacturer specs.

    In doing so the manufacturer has provided rating charts for the unit based on delta T variations. It is solely upto the installer to read and understand these ratings. It is solely upto the installer to determine the max flow rate of the system in question. If that is done right then the system will meet the intent of the codes.
    The Codes do not defer to Manufactures Spec but they do set minimums sizing. The UPC takes it one step further and calls out the FHR minimum by bedroom and bathroom totals.

    Mark
    "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

    I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

    Comment


    • #92
      Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

      I believe one our most important jobs is to help the owner make an informed decision.

      Mark
      "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

      I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

      Comment


      • #93
        Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

        Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
        The Codes do not defer to Manufactures Spec but they do set minimums sizing. The UPC takes it one step further and calls out the FHR minimum by bedroom and bathroom totals.

        Mark
        I have found that the codes here DO defer to the manufacturer when something has been approved but not directly addressed by the code yet.

        J.C.

        Comment


        • #94
          Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

          problem is mark, the code that i just looked up is nuts.

          section 501.0 table 5-1.

          minimum first hour ratings from 45 for a 1 1.5 bathroom 1 bedroom to a 80 gph for a 3-3.5 bathroom 6 bedroom house.

          so in theory the 3gpm electric would be approved for the 6 bed 3.5 bath house

          please tell me i'm wrong as i already tried to look up the water sizing codes and they don't really address it other than the 15 psi fixture supply.

          help put an end to this nonsense
          phoebe it is

          Comment


          • #95
            Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

            Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
            I have found that the codes here DO defer to the manufacturer when something has been approved but not directly addressed by the code yet.

            J.C.
            In sizing?

            Mark
            "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

            I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

            Comment


            • #96
              Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

              Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
              The Codes do not defer to Manufactures Spec but they do set minimums sizing. The UPC takes it one step further and calls out the FHR minimum by bedroom and bathroom totals.

              Mark
              Ok so the failure of performance still comes back to the installer and not the equipment. Everyone wants to blame and knock the equipment. The price tag is what it is. If this is what they want they will pay.

              Comment


              • #97
                Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

                Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                problem is mark, the code that i just looked up is nuts.

                section 501.0 table 5-1.

                minimum first hour ratings from 45 for a 1 1.5 bathroom 1 bedroom to a 80 gph for a 3-3.5 bathroom 6 bedroom house.

                so in theory the 3gpm electric would be approved for the 6 bed 3.5 bath house

                please tell me i'm wrong as i already tried to look up the water sizing codes and they don't really address it other than the 15 psi fixture supply.

                help put an end to this nonsense



                Comment


                • #98
                  Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

                  I'll help you out here Rick.

                  We all know that 3gpm is under rated. One thing gas units will do is retard the flow to maintain temperature. That will give a pressure drop and fail to meet 15 psi if the system is maxed out. That failure again is the installer under sizing and making unrealistic expectations.
                  Last edited by Kevin Jones; 07-04-2010, 12:14 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

                    Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                    problem is mark, the code that i just looked up is nuts.

                    section 501.0 table 5-1.

                    minimum first hour ratings from 45 for a 1 1.5 bathroom 1 bedroom to a 80 gph for a 3-3.5 bathroom 6 bedroom house.

                    so in theory the 3gpm electric would be approved for the 6 bed 3.5 bath house

                    please tell me i'm wrong as i already tried to look up the water sizing codes and they don't really address it other than the 15 psi fixture supply.

                    help put an end to this nonsense
                    Yep that is pretty much it. We require there is available flow but not how much will be tempered, with the exception of the UPC. Just one more reason to hire a qualified plumber.

                    I actually have a buddy who has an electric tankless which probably gives him 1.0 gpm at best.

                    Mark
                    "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                    I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                    Comment


                    • Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

                      Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                      problem is mark, the code that i just looked up is nuts.

                      section 501.0 table 5-1.

                      minimum first hour ratings from 45 for a 1 1.5 bathroom 1 bedroom to a 80 gph for a 3-3.5 bathroom 6 bedroom house.

                      so in theory the 3gpm electric would be approved for the 6 bed 3.5 bath house

                      please tell me i'm wrong as i already tried to look up the water sizing codes and they don't really address it other than the 15 psi fixture supply.

                      help put an end to this nonsense
                      Old school rules...New school technology

                      The FHR is meaningless to a per minute unit. If you are going to advance into this area then you have to be real with what your customer's needs are. The code will be well met when done right.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

                        Originally posted by Kevin Jones View Post
                        Old school rules...New school technology

                        The FHR is meaningless to a per minute unit. If you are going to advance into this area then you have to be real with what your customer's needs are. The code will be well met when done right.
                        Actually I disagree. The FHR minimum is still very important as the vast majority of all heaters are still storage types. The problem is there are too many whores out there who are just selling to sell.

                        Mark
                        "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                        I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                        Comment


                        • Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

                          Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                          Actually I disagree. The FHR minimum is still very important as the vast majority of all heaters are still storage types. The problem is there are too many whores out there who are just selling to sell.

                          Mark
                          I agree. Those are the same people giving good equipment a bad name. The same still applies...FHR condones 3gpm for way to much demand on a potential per minute. Sizing this type of equipment is not done by the hour. It MUST be done by the minute.

                          All equipment has it's place and it is our job to install the right equipment per the customers needs and desires, not ours. It is also our job to be real with the equipment installed as to the performance it will deliver.

                          Failure to do so gives those whores a bad name.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

                            so basically you attorney friend is happy with 3gpm or too cheap to do something about it.

                            they had to make a drastic change in order to adapt to 3gpm.

                            the only electric i have installed are tank and other than a longer than gas recovery time, they supply all the hot water per minute as a gas tank heater.

                            installing 3 - 3gpm electric tankless units is a simple task for the plumber. wiring 3- 3gpm electric tankless units is no simple task for the electrician nor is it feasible for most. especially if their utilities lines are underground and not pole fed.

                            the point is, electric tankless are never going to take the place of an electric tank water heater.

                            while tankless gas are selling roughly 25% to a tank gas as per my supply house manager. tankless electric are too low to count. especially in the retrofit market.

                            even the little units for a public bathroom are a joke. 1/2 gpm with a special ultra low flow aerator doesn't really cut it.

                            so you can preach all you want about about tankless, but like jc and i, the information we provide to our customers about tankless, rarely pans out.
                            less than 1% for me.

                            rick.
                            phoebe it is

                            Comment


                            • Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

                              Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                              so basically you attorney friend is happy with 3gpm or too cheap to do something about it.

                              they had to make a drastic change in order to adapt to 3gpm.

                              the only electric i have installed are tank and other than a longer than gas recovery time, they supply all the hot water per minute as a gas tank heater.

                              installing 3 - 3gpm electric tankless units is a simple task for the plumber. wiring 3- 3gpm electric tankless units is no simple task for the electrician nor is it feasible for most. especially if their utilities lines are underground and not pole fed.

                              the point is, electric tankless are never going to take the place of an electric tank water heater.

                              while tankless gas are selling roughly 25% to a tank gas as per my supply house manager. tankless electric are too low to count. especially in the retrofit market.

                              even the little units for a public bathroom are a joke. 1/2 gpm with a special ultra low flow aerator doesn't really cut it.

                              so you can preach all you want about about tankless, but like jc and i, the information we provide to our customers about tankless, rarely pans out.
                              less than 1% for me.

                              rick.
                              I don't understand why you feel the need to attack my attorney/friend just because he is happy and you don't get it. It works for them.

                              I don't understand plumbers knocking equipment they sized wrong in the first place. It is their fault not the equipment.

                              If the budget is the only consideration then yes a tank will most likely go in. A tank is not always going to work either depending on the situation.

                              I do present my customers with the facts and the fact is if that is what they want...then it is my job to make it happen with real and satisfactory results.

                              So if you want to just play around then stay on the porch. The big dogs are installing these units with success. The bottom line is not always the deciding factor. You may want to spend less time knowing yourself and spend more time getting to know your customer.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

                                I think the biggest reason plumbers are afraid of installing these units is they have no clue how to fix them when there is a problem.

                                If you don't know how to fix it. Don't install it. You will look like a fool.

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