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  • Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

    my customers are treated like family. they are the ones that have refereed me to 90% of my jobs. having spent $0.00 in advertising in 35 years, my customers are responsible for my success.

    so that said, i know my customers needs and they know i'm there to give them the best information available. therefore the 2 tankless installs were both appropriate for the situation. otherwise, no tankless would have been sold or installed.

    but i have done a couple dozen tankless repairs.

    best one being as a result of a sewer inspection of a home in escrow.

    walked into the basement to inspect the sewer and noticed a brand new tankless installed with 1/2'' gas. also noticed the stainless venting installed upside down and the best was the seismic earthquake valve was installed back wards and so was the meter.

    notified the buyer and informed them the situation. they told the seller and their answer was it was all inspected and passed

    within a month of the new owner moving in, she called me as she wasn't getting enough hot water

    i moved the heater outside, eliminating the vent, ran a new 3/4'' gas line to the unit and reversed the seismic valve and gas meter.

    she was happy before i left as we tested the unit and it performed as it was intended to.

    so yes, a tankless can work if properly installed and properly sized. but so would have the 40 gallon heater it replaced in the basement that was thousands of dollars less than the tankless.

    justifying a 600-800 amp electrical panel is not justifiable for 99% of the population.

    rick.
    phoebe it is

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    • Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

      so lets have some fun and ask if you would install a tankless electric unit in your house

      give us the total cost break down for your house. amount of units, including the electrical cost associated in installing a properly sized electric tankless.

      if you don't know the exact cost for the electrical upgrade, please list what would be required to supply your electrical and we can figure it out with the given facts.

      this should be fun

      and if not, why

      rick.
      phoebe it is

      Comment


      • Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

        ok I might get slammed but here it goes. If they want endless hot water install a Rinnai tankless gas water heater. 120 volts and not many amps.
        I install alot of gas tankless water heaters, if installed correctly you should not have any trouble with them.
        I am working on a cabin on the MS River and we are putting in four R94's for that that job. 9 1/2 baths
        Last edited by plumbertim1975; 07-04-2010, 03:17 PM. Reason: missed a word

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        • Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

          Originally posted by plumbertim1975 View Post
          ok I might get slammed but here it goes. If they want endless hot water install a Rinnai tankless gas water heater. 120 volts and not many amps.
          I install alot of gas tankless water heaters, if installed correctly you should not have any trouble with them.
          I am working on a cabin on the MS and we are putting in four R94's for that that job. 9 1/2 baths
          No slam from me. If you've looked the job over and it's the right thing to do and what they want then do it.

          I myself have never, ever, encountered a customer that wanted "endless hot water". But EVERY one of them wants the proper amount of hot water for the home/business and how it will be used.

          Just curious, did you explore other options for the customer? Large tank, higher btu's? Circulating pumps or gravity circulation?

          Thanks.

          J.C.

          Comment


          • Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

            Thats what they wanted. I always give the customer what they want, unless I see need to try to sway them in a better direction

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            • Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

              Since we're on water heating in various ways, has anyone had any experience with these yet?

              http://www.hotwater.com/products/res...xt_hybrid.html

              Thanks.

              J.C.

              Comment


              • Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

                Originally posted by plumbertim1975 View Post
                ok I might get slammed but here it goes. If they want endless hot water install a Rinnai tankless gas water heater. 120 volts and not many amps.
                I install alot of gas tankless water heaters, if installed correctly you should not have any trouble with them.
                I am working on a cabin on the MS River and we are putting in four R94's for that that job. 9 1/2 baths
                I have installed more Rinnai than any other tankless unit. I have been installing them for 15 years now. I like gas units because they make more sense. Electric can be done but the real deal of properly sizing the unit general makes cost out of the question at this time.

                Tankless has its place and market. It sounds like you are about to have a nice job. Just make sure you size the gas pipe correctly. The unit will know.

                Comment


                • Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

                  Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                  so lets have some fun and ask if you would install a tankless electric unit in your house

                  give us the total cost break down for your house. amount of units, including the electrical cost associated in installing a properly sized electric tankless.

                  if you don't know the exact cost for the electrical upgrade, please list what would be required to supply your electrical and we can figure it out with the given facts.

                  this should be fun

                  and if not, why

                  rick.
                  Rick I have asked you tons of questions on this thread...none of which you have answered. You still want to look the part anyway.

                  I have considered installing tankless on my home. I decided to do something you believe in even less by installing solar. By going tankless I would now decrease the storage capacity of my solar system that is saving us a good $1000/year. That decrease of capacity would harm other equipment already in place by overheating the systems.

                  Why don't you go do your homework and learn a bit more about both types of systems? Get back to me with the results as it will be graded.

                  If you want to waste your time by running the math on your home then be my guest. My home is covered. My customers are happy. The ones that have tankless have anted up or know the output supply and adapted while they hugged the tree. I look forward to the results.

                  The next time I size a system, I will be paid to do it. Are you going to write a check Rick? If so then I will start sizing. You may want to PM me to get my consultation fees.
                  Last edited by Kevin Jones; 07-04-2010, 04:31 PM. Reason: corrected grammer

                  Comment


                  • Re: Electric tankless water heaters

                    Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                    No slam from me. If you've looked the job over and it's the right thing to do and what they want then do it.

                    I myself have never, ever, encountered a customer that wanted "endless hot water". But EVERY one of them wants the proper amount of hot water for the home/business and how it will be used.

                    Just curious, did you explore other options for the customer? Large tank, higher btu's? Circulating pumps or gravity circulation?

                    Thanks.

                    J.C.
                    Endless hot water is interpreted alot of ways, for instance the customer that wants to fill a 65 gal tub and he/she or anouther take a shower immediately after, thats not to be done with anything less than 2-75g and would that make sense?

                    Comment


                    • Re: Electric tankless water heaters

                      Originally posted by Lee H View Post
                      Endless hot water is interpreted alot of ways, for instance the customer that wants to fill a 65 gal tub and he/she or anouther take a shower immediately after, thats not to be done with anything less than 2-75g and would that make sense?
                      "Endless hot water" is a marketing term used by tankless manufacturers.

                      Turn on a few things in the winter for a "properly sized" tankless and you will get endless low volume hot water.

                      I do understand what you're saying though. Each install has to be looked at in its totality.

                      Might be getting above my brain here, but in the situation you describe, I'm pretty sure I could keep them happier with 1 tank.

                      J.C.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

                        Originally posted by Kevin Jones View Post
                        Rick I have asked you tons of questions on this thread...none of which you have answered. You still want to look the part anyway.

                        I have considered installing tankless on my home. I decided to do something you believe even less by installing solar. By going tankless I would now decrease the storage capacity of my solar system that is saving us a good $1000/year. That decrease of capacity would harm other equipment already in place by overheating the systems.

                        Why don't you go do your homework and learn a bit more about both types of systems? Get back to me with the results as it will be graded.

                        If you want to waste your time by running the math on your home then be my guest. My home is covered. My customers are happy. The ones that have tankless have anted up or know the output supply and adapted while they hugged the tree. I look forward to the results.

                        The next system I size a system I will be paid to do it. Are you going to write a check Rick? If so then I will start sizing. You may want to PM me to get my consultation fees.
                        i knew you weren't going to take the bait as you would just prove how expensive the system would cost to install. you quoted the op approx a 10 gpm demand.

                        lets for fun size the electrical at your house to suppy the 10gpm demand. we already know the cost of 3 electric tankless units as your link already showed them at approx $900 each.

                        so what's it going to take to power the units. don't forget to check with your power company the cost of a new drop or the cost of a new underground service.

                        told you it was going to be fun. but then again i knew you weren't going to share the real cost. hooking up the plumbing is a couple hours work. running the electrical and making it work is the real cost.

                        shouldn't take you much time at all to figure it out, after all you're the expert

                        i'll accept rounding it off to the closest $1000. so you don't need to spend too much time with a calculator.

                        this will still be fun

                        rick.
                        phoebe it is

                        Comment


                        • Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

                          I have a gas fired storage heater in my California home because a tankless would not make financial sense.

                          My Las Vegas home has a gas fired storage heater but I turn it to pilot when I am gone so the demand is minimal

                          When I build my cabin in Utah, I will use a gas fires tankless not because it makes sense but because it is the responsible thing to do.

                          The only time I would consider an electric tankless might be as a backup to solar.

                          Mark
                          "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                          I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

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                          • Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

                            I already said if you want to waste the time it will be your time. Unless you are going to pay my consultation fees.

                            I know it is not cheap and in many cases doesn't make sense. The point is slamming a system that is undersized is not the fault of the equipment.
                            Gas is generally a better choice.

                            Bottom line plumber...It is not for everybody. The ones that want it will pay and you are missing the chance for a better paying job.

                            You have already tried to beat the option by code and ended up beating yourself. The systems that are out there and don't meet expectations are from installers fault. You spend the time on the calculator and get back to me master sir.

                            So far you get an "F" on you assignment.
                            Last edited by Kevin Jones; 07-04-2010, 04:56 PM. Reason: addition

                            Comment


                            • Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

                              Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                              I have a gas fired storage heater in my California home because a tankless would not make financial sense.

                              My Las Vegas home has a gas fired storage heater but I turn it to pilot when I am gone so the demand is minimal

                              When I build my cabin in Utah, I will use a gas fires tankless not because it makes sense but because it is the responsible thing to do.

                              The only time I would consider an electric tankless might be as a backup to solar.

                              Mark
                              Why is it the responsible thing to do? Fire possibilities?

                              Thanks.

                              J.C.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Electric tankless waterheaters

                                Originally posted by plumbertim1975 View Post
                                ok I might get slammed but here it goes. If they want endless hot water install a Rinnai tankless gas water heater. 120 volts and not many amps.
                                I install alot of gas tankless water heaters, if installed correctly you should not have any trouble with them.
                                I am working on a cabin on the MS River and we are putting in four R94's for that that job. 9 1/2 baths
                                no slam here either. but the real discussion was the cost and feasibility of installing a tankless electric unit that produces approx 10gpm.

                                10gpm tankless gas is a no brainer.

                                but what's not a no brainer is your gas load demand. those 4 units have a demand of up to 199,000 each natural gas and 190,000 each for lp.

                                getting 800,000 btu's of supply gas out here is usually not too difficult. it's the rest of the gas demand that might put us over the top.

                                i saved an electrician a $50,000 gas company charge on a 100kw generator install that the gas company was consulted with in the planning stage. once the unit was up and running, there was not enough gas to the property to make it run with the rest of the house.

                                the gas company wanted 50k to bring in a new service from the street 300' below.

                                the email i was a part of with the gas company and electrician was what saved the electrician the charge. knowing what was discussed and having access to all my old emails, made for a case the gas company couldn't win.

                                make sure that you cover your bases with the gas demand

                                rick.
                                phoebe it is

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