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  • #61
    Re: Gas Codes

    Originally posted by blue_can View Post
    Kevin - one thing I don't follow is why would this concern you when you could have defective black pipe with possible pin holes that may just be closed enough to pass a pressure test and yet fail shortly afterwards. What's the difference between that and a layer of zinc blocking a hole that could fail shortly afterwards.
    I have never seen it. I am blissfully ignorant to such a thing.

    I do know that when black iron is tested and holds...it is a product that is approved on the highest levels that made that bond. It is a product that really meets the intent of the code for what the pipe is.

    Trust me when I say a pinhole does show on a test and does not pass. No matter how small the pinhole is...it shows.

    Comment


    • #62
      Re: Gas Codes

      Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
      I'm guessing you may not know what an RP is for so that may have been a bad analogy for me to use.

      Mark
      An RP is a backflow preventer? Standard outdoor models for irrigation and higher end units indoor for commercial use. Watts is the primary provider around here. If this is not what you are talking about then please post a pic.

      Putting a backflow for domestic water U/G defeats the purpose of the valve and is a poor reference to whatever point you are attempting to make with regards to gas regulators. Sorry.

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: Gas Codes

        Originally posted by Kevin Jones View Post
        I have never seen it. I am blissfully ignorant to such a thing.

        I do know that when black iron is tested and holds...it is a product that is approved on the highest levels that made that bond. It is a product that really meets the intent of the code for what the pipe is.

        Trust me when I say a pinhole does show on a test and does not pass. No matter how small the pinhole is...it shows.
        I guess what I was getting at is that manufacturing defects could produce pipe with pits that are almost pinholes. Such pipe could hold pressure and seem to be good when infact it could (and may well) open up hole as it ages.

        Or are you saying that manufactured pipe is either perfect or got pinholes - no inbetween type situation - just one or the other. Just curious

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: Gas Codes

          Originally posted by Kevin Jones View Post
          An RP is a backflow preventer? Standard outdoor models for irrigation and higher end units indoor for commercial use. Watts is the primary provider around here. If this is not what you are talking about then please post a pic.

          Putting a backflow for domestic water U/G defeats the purpose of the valve and is a poor reference to whatever point you are attempting to make with regards to gas regulators. Sorry.
          It sounds lile you may know what it is but not how it works. The "relief port" is the only proper phrase you would use and it has nothing to do with an over pressure failure.

          Mark
          "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

          I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: Gas Codes

            Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
            It sounds lile you may know what it is but not how it works. The "relief port" is the only proper phrase you would use and it has nothing to do with an over pressure failure.

            Mark
            Then it sounds like you don't understand the purpose of a gas regulator vent. Because a relief port is far from reality. We are talking about gas the last time I checked?

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: Gas Codes

              Originally posted by blue_can View Post
              I guess what I was getting at is that manufacturing defects could produce pipe with pits that are almost pinholes. Such pipe could hold pressure and seem to be good when infact it could (and may well) open up hole as it ages.

              Or are you saying that manufactured pipe is either perfect or got pinholes - no inbetween type situation - just one or the other. Just curious
              Yes manufactured pipe is not perfect BI or Galvy. Yes after time any pipe can and will fail.

              I am more so suggesting that failed BI is being hot dipped and send out as good galvy when it is not up to par from the assumed beginning.

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: Gas Codes

                Originally posted by Kevin Jones View Post
                Yes manufactured pipe is not perfect BI or Galvy. Yes after time any pipe can and will fail.

                I am more so suggesting that failed BI is being hot dipped and send out as good galvy when it is not up to par from the assumed beginning.
                Yes, I agree that in such cases where a pinhole exists the galv coating will possibly mask the issue. But without having stats on how many such failures could be prevented vs substandard black pipe with manufacturing defects that does not have galv coating I'm not sure about the basis for your concerns.

                If you can post links to such stats I think it will validate your concerns. That's what I've not seen in this discussion so far.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: Gas Codes

                  Originally posted by Kevin Jones View Post
                  Then it sounds like you don't understand the purpose of a gas regulator vent. Because a relief port is far from reality. We are talking about gas the last time I checked?
                  LOL - I've yet to say anything about a gas regulator. I was trying to explain my concerns with installing a Quick-Disconnect in a vault and you brought up regulators. All I did was to say you cannot compare a RP with a regulator.

                  Mark
                  "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                  I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: Gas Codes

                    Originally posted by Kevin Jones View Post
                    I understand how QDs work. Thanks for the refresher course. I dare say I have installed more than most on here or I may be bold at well over 2000, you tell me as you like to do. I am also applying the code and said a positive stop is in place. In many areas beyond the gas cock is beyond jurisdiction.

                    not according to the code i referenced. why even say to reverse the quick disconnect when it's not an approved method or listed for that as an assembly. 1212.2 54:9.6.2

                    I also suggested the check valve possibility of some brands. At what point should you start to realize I have done this before? Not for track homes obviously. It depends on the design and the area as to approval.

                    I still say Rick's suggestion is full of it and want to see paint hold a pressure test. Come on don't be afraid. Lets see it

                    you really think dried paint filling a pinhole won't hold a 15# test.

                    i guess you never plugged a spray paint nozzle with dried paint a lot more than 15# of aerosol pressure


                    As for welded pipe? I thought I read you weren't a welder so why are you taking credit for that? Besides gas pipe at 3" or better as I recall must be welded. So a better question would be...why are you threading 4"?
                    well you might want to check your codes. 4'' can be threaded or welded.
                    1209.5.8.4 or 1209.5.7 nfpa 54:5.6.8.4 (1) threaded fittings above 4'' requires prior approval. making it easy for you as i also listed the nfpa you keep referring to along with our upc codes

                    you're right i'm not a certified welder as far as piping goes. but i can still fab and fit it. considering i own 2 migs, 2 arcs, a tig, a gas driven arc and plasma cutter. might not have the license to weld, but i can weld steel, stainless and aluminum.

                    rick.
                    phoebe it is

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: Gas Codes

                      Originally posted by blue_can View Post
                      Yes, I agree that in such cases where a pinhole exists the galv coating will possibly mask the issue. But without having stats on how many such failures could be prevented vs substandard black pipe with manufacturing defects that does not have galv coating I'm not sure about the basis for your concerns.

                      If you can post links to such stats I think it will validate your concerns. That's what I've not seen in this discussion so far.
                      The stats of my experiences were posted a few months back. The amount of fittings we went through were large as well as the pipe. I wish I had pics today to share what I saw but this was many years ago and I did not need them. My only concern was to fix the leak and move on.

                      Out of many thousand fittings per year there were at least 12 failures from pinholes in galvy. That is pretty sad...now that the pipe has had 2 chances of being made whole. This was also USA made by Ward.

                      By my experience I saw 2X the failure rate in galvy vs. black. Again I wish I had all those in pics to share...then you would believe.

                      Ya see I didn't play around as a gas guy and do plumbing. I wasn't a plumber pretending to do gas. I was a gas man doing nothing but gas at that time and saw far more in one year than most will in a career as a plumber.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: Gas Codes

                        Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                        LOL - I've yet to say anything about a gas regulator. I was trying to explain my concerns with installing a Quick-Disconnect in a vault and you brought up regulators. All I did was to say you cannot compare a RP with a regulator.

                        Mark
                        Sorry Mark I am not getting your point at all...Try to make it again and make one please.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: Gas Codes

                          Originally posted by Kevin Jones View Post
                          The stats of my experiences were posted a few months back. The amount of fittings we went through were large as well as the pipe. I wish I had pics today to share what I saw but this was many years ago and I did not need them. My only concern was to fix the leak and move on.

                          Out of many thousand fittings per year there were at least 12 failures from pinholes in galvy. That is pretty sad...now that the pipe has had 2 chances of being made whole. This was also USA made by Ward.

                          By my experience I saw 2X the failure rate in galvy vs. black. Again I wish I had all those in pics to share...then you would believe.

                          Ya see I didn't play around as a gas guy and do plumbing. I wasn't a plumber pretending to do gas. I was a gas man doing nothing but gas at that time and saw far more in one year than most will in a career as a plumber.
                          I mean an official study into the problem. I'm sure you saw those issues you mention but it is possible that your experience was statistically skewed. Unless the same problem is widely encountered it could just be unfortunate coincidence.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: Gas Codes

                            Originally posted by Kevin Jones View Post

                            Ya see I didn't play around as a gas guy and do plumbing. I wasn't a plumber pretending to do gas. I was a gas man doing nothing but gas at that time and saw far more in one year than most will in a career as a plumber.
                            so basically you're not a plumber. but a gas fitter or gas utility worker.

                            because last time i checked, plumbers are licensed to do water, waste, gas, non forced heating among other parts of the trade.

                            http://www.cslb.ca.gov/GeneralInform...36Plumbing.asp

                            explain why the gal had more pin holes than black fittings? especially when they both stated off as a black fitting

                            rick.
                            phoebe it is

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: Gas Codes

                              Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                              You need to follow the Thread a little closer. The topic on hand is not a "gas valve" it is a quick-connect valve and hose. As for your suggested box in the ground, it does not appear there is any fall available to install as you suggest. I would also have the same concern for why you cannot install an RP in a pit.

                              Mark
                              Originally posted by Kevin Jones View Post
                              Sorry what is RP?
                              Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                              Reduced Pressure Principal Device
                              Originally posted by Kevin Jones View Post
                              There was no issue with the monitoring regulator or primary regulators being installed U/G. We did install proper sorkel tubes for the diaphrams to operate without drawing water.
                              Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                              How can you compare an RP with a regulator. What would you do with the relief port?

                              Mark
                              Originally posted by Kevin Jones View Post
                              The relief port as you call it is more than that. The vent is a relief in a over pressure failure. The vent also provides air space for the regulator diaphram to move. In gas regulators a snorkel is provided that allows enough air movement for the diaphram to move and not draw in water. In the old days a brass flare adapter and a well bent piece of copper would do. That was replaced with manufacturer sold vent tubes. The manufacturers of gas regulators still make vent tubes for their stuff.

                              Why don't you contact Watts and ask them about installing a RP U/G? I can't remember one time ever installing a propane tank or U/G valve inside. Inside is also the location of many RPs. When outside an RP will have drain ports and be above ground as being below defeats the purpose. I am sorry the two together are not making one bit of sense.
                              Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                              I'm guessing you may not know what an RP is for so that may have been a bad analogy for me to use.

                              Mark
                              Originally posted by Kevin Jones View Post
                              An RP is a backflow preventer? Standard outdoor models for irrigation and higher end units indoor for commercial use. Watts is the primary provider around here. If this is not what you are talking about then please post a pic.

                              Putting a backflow for domestic water U/G defeats the purpose of the valve and is a poor reference to whatever point you are attempting to make with regards to gas regulators. Sorry.
                              Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                              It sounds lile you may know what it is but not how it works. The "relief port" is the only proper phrase you would use and it has nothing to do with an over pressure failure.

                              Mark
                              Originally posted by Kevin Jones View Post
                              Then it sounds like you don't understand the purpose of a gas regulator vent. Because a relief port is far from reality. We are talking about gas the last time I checked?
                              Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                              LOL - I've yet to say anything about a gas regulator. I was trying to explain my concerns with installing a Quick-Disconnect in a vault and you brought up regulators. All I did was to say you cannot compare a RP with a regulator.

                              Mark
                              Originally posted by Kevin Jones View Post
                              Sorry Mark I am not getting your point at all...Try to make it again and make one please.
                              I never posted anything about a regulator other than you cannot compare the installation of an RP with a regulator.

                              Mark
                              "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                              I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: Gas Codes

                                Originally posted by blue_can View Post
                                I mean an official study into the problem. I'm sure you saw those issues you mention but it is possible that your experience was statistically skewed. Unless the same problem is widely encountered it could just be unfortunate coincidence.
                                Now you sound like an Engineer and you are 100% correct.

                                I have installed railroad cars full of galvanize pipe in 1/8" through 4" and black pipe in 1/8" through 2". On very rare occasions you will get bad pipe or fittings which you usually catch before it is installed. On really rare occasions you may not find it until your test. Neither I nor anyone working for me has ever found a sand casting or seam void in a pipe which we put in service and it leaked later.

                                The above said, if you want to see a pipe system that has a lot of sand casting holes look at cast iron.

                                Mark
                                Last edited by ToUtahNow; 07-23-2010, 11:59 AM.
                                "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                                I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                                Comment

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