Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

water soluble flux

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Re: water soluble flux

    The water soluble flux is just another political code. Some of these guys writing code just want their me time and some credit. As there "MIGHT" be some merit to this issue they take it too far as always. Its difficult to find a jar of WS flux here. 1 of the local wholesalers here has approx. 5 cases sitting there labeled free and its been there for over a year now. Gives you an idea of how much its used here for any kind of copper work. Flux of choice here is Oatey No.95 and No.5. There are a few cities that do look for it but you'd have to be using it right in front of them to have an issue. The rest of the inspectors actually understand the difficulties using WS flux and don't push the issue. Only on our multi story, hospital or government work do we have to provide MSDS sheets and proof of product used. It is such a small detail , it makes itself a non-issue. I have yet to see a failed pipe because of flux. The amounts of chlorine,flouride and other chemicals put into our potable water system ALWAYS cleans the pipes very well. Hot water side always cleans up quick and the cold side only takes a week or 2 depending on amount of usage to clean up. Let me know the next time you cut open a pipe and find any kind of flux still sitting around. I have seen more copper fail because of improper sizing, ( condensate drains,boiler apps, recirc lines ,etc) and have never found a suspect flux joint issue. CA is the leader of liberal useless codes and EPA regs.

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: water soluble flux

      Swer Pickle,
      Are you sure the hot side always cleans up nicely?

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: water soluble flux

        Originally posted by Flux View Post
        I think we have to take California out of the equation here. They have codes for codes for christ sakes. California is in it's own category all by itself.
        From the Pennsylvania Plumbing Code:

        605.14.3 Soldered joints. Solder joints shall be made in
        accordance with the methods of ASTM B 828. All cut tube
        ends shall be reamed to the full inside diameter of the tube
        end. All joint surfaces shall be cleaned. A flux conforming
        to ASTM B 813 shall be applied. The joint shall be soldered
        with a solder conforming to ASTM B 32. The joining of
        water supply piping shall be made with lead-free solder and
        fluxes. "Lead free" shall mean a chemical composition
        equal to or less than 0.2-percent lead.

        605.15.4 Soldered joints. Solder joints shall be made in
        accordance with the methods of ASTM B 828. All cut tube
        ends shall be reamed to the full inside diameter of the tube
        end. All joint surfaces shall be cleaned. A flux conforming
        to ASTM B 813 shall be applied. The joint shall be soldered
        with a solder conforming to ASTM B 32. The joining of
        water supply piping shall be made with lead-free solders
        and fluxes. "Lead free" shall mean a chemical composition
        equal to or less than 0.2-percent lead.

        705.9.3 Soldered joints. Solder joints shall be made in
        accordance with thy methods of ASTM B 828. All cut tube
        ends shall be reamed to the full inside diameter of the tube
        end. All joint surfaces shall be cleaned. A flux conforming
        to ASTM B 813 shall be applied. The joint shall be soldered
        with a solder conforming to ASTM B 32.

        705.10.3 Soldered joints. Solder joints shall be made in
        accordance with the methods of ASTM B 828. All cut tube
        ends shall be reamed to the full inside diameter of the tube
        end. All joint surfaces shall be cleaned. A flux conforming
        to ASTM B 813 shall be applied. The joint shall be soldered
        with a solder conforming to ASTM B 32.

        Just because you and others may ignore your Plumbing Code does not mean it is not part of your Codes.

        Mark
        "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

        I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: water soluble flux

          Originally posted by SEWER PICKLE View Post
          The water soluble flux is just another political code. Some of these guys writing code just want their me time and some credit. As there "MIGHT" be some merit to this issue they take it too far as always. Its difficult to find a jar of WS flux here. 1 of the local wholesalers here has approx. 5 cases sitting there labeled free and its been there for over a year now. Gives you an idea of how much its used here for any kind of copper work. Flux of choice here is Oatey No.95 and No.5. There are a few cities that do look for it but you'd have to be using it right in front of them to have an issue. The rest of the inspectors actually understand the difficulties using WS flux and don't push the issue. Only on our multi story, hospital or government work do we have to provide MSDS sheets and proof of product used. It is such a small detail , it makes itself a non-issue. I have yet to see a failed pipe because of flux. The amounts of chlorine,flouride and other chemicals put into our potable water system ALWAYS cleans the pipes very well. Hot water side always cleans up quick and the cold side only takes a week or 2 depending on amount of usage to clean up. Let me know the next time you cut open a pipe and find any kind of flux still sitting around. I have seen more copper fail because of improper sizing, ( condensate drains,boiler apps, recirc lines ,etc) and have never found a suspect flux joint issue. CA is the leader of liberal useless codes and EPA regs.
          Couldn't of said it better myself.

          The Fergusons near me also has free Water Soluble Flux containers that have been sitting there for awhile now.

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: water soluble flux

            Originally posted by Chemeng View Post
            Swer Pickle,
            Are you sure the hot side always cleans up nicely?
            If you have hot water it will wash out non water soluble flux but sometimes a house may be on the market for a year or so before sold. That means there is not only no hot water but there may be no water at all. I recently did some work with another plumber on this site from out of State and found slab leaks related to non water soluble flux.

            Mark
            "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

            I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: water soluble flux

              Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
              From the Pennsylvania Plumbing Code:

              605.14.3 Soldered joints. Solder joints shall be made in
              accordance with the methods of ASTM B 828. All cut tube
              ends shall be reamed to the full inside diameter of the tube
              end. All joint surfaces shall be cleaned. A flux conforming
              to ASTM B 813 shall be applied. The joint shall be soldered
              with a solder conforming to ASTM B 32. The joining of
              water supply piping shall be made with lead-free solder and
              fluxes. "Lead free" shall mean a chemical composition
              equal to or less than 0.2-percent lead.

              605.15.4 Soldered joints. Solder joints shall be made in
              accordance with the methods of ASTM B 828. All cut tube
              ends shall be reamed to the full inside diameter of the tube
              end. All joint surfaces shall be cleaned. A flux conforming
              to ASTM B 813 shall be applied. The joint shall be soldered
              with a solder conforming to ASTM B 32. The joining of
              water supply piping shall be made with lead-free solders
              and fluxes. "Lead free" shall mean a chemical composition
              equal to or less than 0.2-percent lead.

              705.9.3 Soldered joints. Solder joints shall be made in
              accordance with thy methods of ASTM B 828. All cut tube
              ends shall be reamed to the full inside diameter of the tube
              end. All joint surfaces shall be cleaned. A flux conforming
              to ASTM B 813 shall be applied. The joint shall be soldered
              with a solder conforming to ASTM B 32.

              705.10.3 Soldered joints. Solder joints shall be made in
              accordance with the methods of ASTM B 828. All cut tube
              ends shall be reamed to the full inside diameter of the tube
              end. All joint surfaces shall be cleaned. A flux conforming
              to ASTM B 813 shall be applied. The joint shall be soldered
              with a solder conforming to ASTM B 32.

              Just because you and others may ignore your Plumbing Code does not mean it is not part of your Codes.

              Mark
              Are you sure that's the Pennsylvania Plumbing code..or do you THINK that's what we follow? I know the answer..do you?

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: water soluble flux

                Of course all this could have been avoided if certain plumbers and most DIY warriors would only use enough flux to clean the joint instead of painting on a big gob of the stuff.

                According to the copper institute the number one mistake made in soldering joints is too much heat. Followed by too much flux and too much solder. They also recommend against ever wiping a joint which, if you have properly prepared the joint and soldered it correctly makes a lot of sense. Soldering is something that almost anyone can learn to do quickly. Doing it right takes a lot of practice and a lot of skill.
                sigpic

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: water soluble flux

                  Originally posted by Flux View Post
                  Are you sure that's the Pennsylvania Plumbing code..or do you THINK that's what we follow? I know the answer..do you?
                  It is from the Pennsylvania Web Site, 403.21. Uniform Construction Code which applies unless you are in a municipality within a county of the second class.

                  Mark
                  "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                  I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: water soluble flux

                    Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                    It is from the Pennsylvania Web Site, 403.21. Uniform Construction Code which applies unless you are in a municipality within a county of the second class.

                    Mark
                    Pittsburgh & Philadelphia have their own Plumbing codes. I think Reading might have their own as well but I'm not sure.

                    I live in the Philadelphia suburbs so...each municipality follows their own version of the Plumbing code.

                    Just like some municipalities don't require you to be a licensed Plumber to do work, or pull Plumbing permits.

                    I live in an area that's extremely F'd up...it's ridiculous.

                    Just recently before we "supposedly" went to one code...southeastern,Pa had like 4 different Plumbing codes for each municipality.

                    Meaning..Town A could be Boca...and the town right next door could be National. One town was UPC and of course Philadelphia has it's own code they made.

                    Just because we are "supposedly" international now..each municipality doesn't follow the current code. One could be the 2000 version...one could be the 2003 version.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: water soluble flux

                      Originally posted by Flux View Post
                      Pittsburgh & Philadelphia have their own Plumbing codes. I think Reading might have their own as well but I'm not sure.

                      I live in the Philadelphia suburbs so...each municipality follows their own version of the Plumbing code.

                      Just like some municipalities don't require you to be a licensed Plumber to do work, or pull Plumbing permits.

                      I live in an area that's extremely F'd up...it's ridiculous.

                      Just recently before we "supposedly" went to one code...southeastern,Pa had like 4 different Plumbing codes for each municipality.

                      Meaning..Town A could be Boca...and the town right next door could be National. One town was UPC and of course Philadelphia has it's own code they made.

                      Just because we are "supposedly" international now..each municipality doesn't follow the current code. One could be the 2000 version...one could be the 2003 version.
                      Wow that is really messed up.

                      By the way, I believe BOCA merged with the ICC in 1997.

                      Mark
                      "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                      I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: water soluble flux

                        Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                        Wow that is really messed up.

                        By the way, I believe BOCA merged with the ICC in 1997.

                        Mark
                        It's a real P.I.A. to keep up with each municipality.

                        From what I'm told..the reason this state is so screwed up Plumbing wise..was because Pittsburgh & Philadelphia and a few others fought to have their own code, and not go to a state wide code.

                        My buddy told me when he took the Philadelphia Master Plumbers test, the instructor said and I quote.."We don't care if you been Plumbing for 70 years, you need to pass our test for our code".

                        So Pennsylvania went to the I.P.C. just a few short years ago.

                        Basically..the closer you get to the city of Philadelphia..the more prohibitive of a code you will get.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: water soluble flux

                          Why solder why bother ? Too many ways to run water lines nowadays . I finally got my account with the local supply house that sells veiga pure flow pex system so I will be keeping the.aluminium/pex on the truck and less pro press copper . The torch on my truck is a little map gas set up and is only used to unsolder fittings were I need the room , heat shrinks , or to re light a heater.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: water soluble flux

                            Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                            If you have hot water it will wash out non water soluble flux but sometimes a house may be on the market for a year or so before sold. That means there is not only no hot water but there may be no water at all. I recently did some work with another plumber on this site from out of State and found slab leaks related to non water soluble flux.

                            Mark
                            Are you saying you are allowed to solder joints underground ? Normal practice is mechanical or silver solder..... no flux issues. Right? Even "IF" the house sits flux is very stable below 167 degrees f. But then again water soluble flux was designed not to be less corrosive under stagnate conditions , but rather be less toxic, according to certain individuals opinions. How about this example " I invent a seat belt......???? Now all I need is a law or code to require you to wear one." yes it is safer but by how much. Never seen a seat belt save more than 1 life. I feel WS flux will save less and prevent nothing when it comes to copper piping. ( other than a bunch of cussing )

                            Anyone here think low voc glue is so much better ??????? You guessed it , it just makes those requiring it " feel" better about themselves.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: water soluble flux

                              rick did not know that...hows that possible and why?been using canfeild coppermate since day one always purchased at supply house never at depot.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: water soluble flux

                                Originally posted by LThompson View Post
                                rick did not know that...hows that possible and why?been using canfeild coppermate since day one always purchased at supply house never at depot.
                                from reading this thread, it looks like 90% of the guys here don't follow the actual code. therefore they have never had to deal with flux that doesn't work with any moisture present.

                                if they did use the required flux, they too would be using propress like myself and the handful of others here.

                                i can tell everyone, that flux will destroy a copper line if not properly used and wiped clean. i've fixed many copper leaks that i know were flux related. unless the line is exposed to high flow and high temperature, the excess flux does not wash out. then you still have the residual flux on the outside of the line that was not washed clean.

                                there was a time when fire sprinklers were done in copper. it didn't take long for the flux that dripped onto the sprinkler orifice to start eat the brass disc and cause a leak in the head.

                                rick.
                                phoebe it is

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X