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  • #61
    Re: water soluble flux

    Made $135 off a flux leak two pro press couplings and about 2 feet of copper . So solder on I just don't see the point in it anymore . You know all those green spots are from guys not cleaning their pipes its like little dollar signs .

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    • #62
      Re: water soluble flux

      I've used water soluble. It is more trouble as you have a smaller window & the effects of water can slow you down if it's present.

      But really, no big deal. Just another thing you have to deal with.

      And for whatever reason we just don't see these traditional flux problems on longterm copper.

      I would never buy a ProPress & fittings only because of using water soluble flux. Even if that was the only flux made.

      J.C.

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      • #63
        Re: water soluble flux

        I deal with forensic engineers every week with the insurance companies and have yet to hear or see a flux related leak. These guys travel not just the state but the country and via laboratory process' determine their findings, and to date have I actually heard of a "flux" leak. I am not saying flux does not corrode Cu , but your talking specific conditions that take controlled environments for many years just to eat thru type M copper. If you "think" you can determine a flux leak from the field you need to contact your nearest ASTM office and inform them of your skills. I assure you , you will be highly valuable to them and many others.

        I choose to NOT use WS flux for its inability to do a proper job reliably , as Rick pointed out clearly several times.

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        • #64
          Re: water soluble flux

          Originally posted by SEWER PICKLE View Post
          I deal with forensic engineers every week with the insurance companies and have yet to hear or see a flux related leak. These guys travel not just the state but the country and via laboratory process' determine their findings, and to date have I actually heard of a "flux" leak. I am not saying flux does not corrode Cu , but your talking specific conditions that take controlled environments for many years just to eat thru type M copper. If you "think" you can determine a flux leak from the field you need to contact your nearest ASTM office and inform them of your skills. I assure you , you will be highly valuable to them and many others.

          I choose to NOT use WS flux for its inability to do a proper job reliably , as Rick pointed out clearly several times.
          i have posted more than 1 picture on this forum of flux related leaks. not sure what forensic engineers you're dealing with, but i can assure you that most plumbers have repaired leaks that were due to flux leaks.

          i won't speak for mark, but i can assure you he's been involved in multiple flux related cases.

          as i've mentioned about the orifice disc in the fires sprinkler heads on copper systems, these were due directly to flux coming into contact with the head.

          also the flux is very, very corrosive to stainless steel flex lines.

          that too i've repaired leaks in gas flexes due to a drop of flux. and those photos are also posted on the forum.

          flux leaks are out there. why you and the forensic experts haven't seen any is the bigger question

          rick.
          phoebe it is

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          • #65
            Re: water soluble flux

            I have worked as a Forensic Expert specializing in Plumbing and Mechanical for the past 22-years. I see flux related leaks on a regular basis. When we see a pinhole leak that appears to be flux related we section the pipe and take it to a Metallurgist (PHD) who specializes in Failure Analysis. They will then use both a Scanning Electron Microscope (SEM) and a Energy Dispersive X-ray (EDX) at high magnification to examine the leak site and the method of failure. This equipment actually identifies the chemical makeup at the leak site. When there is high levels of Chlorides, it is from flux.

            Now here is where the problem comes in when there is illegal flux, some States say the system had to fail while others States say it is enough to just prove the work was contrary to the Code. In other words, if I am representing a plumber on 400-homes in one State I may only have to look at a leak history and come up with a Reserve Replacement Account to pay for future leaks. In another State the Plaintiff's Expert can argue the fact that one home used illegal flux, all 400-homes need to be repiped.

            Mark
            "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

            I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: water soluble flux

              Originally posted by SEWER PICKLE View Post
              Are you saying you are allowed to solder joints underground ? Normal practice is mechanical or silver solder..... no flux issues. Right? Even "IF" the house sits flux is very stable below 167 degrees f. But then again water soluble flux was designed not to be less corrosive under stagnate conditions , but rather be less toxic, according to certain individuals opinions. How about this example " I invent a seat belt......???? Now all I need is a law or code to require you to wear one." yes it is safer but by how much. Never seen a seat belt save more than 1 life. I feel WS flux will save less and prevent nothing when it comes to copper piping. ( other than a bunch of cussing )

              Anyone here think low voc glue is so much better ??????? You guessed it , it just makes those requiring it " feel" better about themselves.
              No the flux can run down the riser and is sometimes ten or fifteen feet from the riser.

              ASTM B 813 has nothing to do with toxins and everything to do with corrosion.

              From the ASTM website:

              Abstract

              This guide establishes the requirements and test methods for liquid and paste fluxes for joining by soldering of copper and copper alloy tube and fittings in plumbing, heating, air conditioning, mechanical, fire sprinkler, and other similar systems. There shall be a clear indication that in the areas of flux reaction, the sheets shall show a corrosion and residue-free surface comparable with the unwetted areas as determined by visual inspection. Samples of flux taken for the purpose of the tests listed in this specification shall be selected from the stock of the manufacturer and shall be representative of the material being evaluated. The specimen shall undergo the spreading test wherein the oven shall be equipped with a sight glass for visible control of the melting of the solder. The specimen shall then pass the aggressiveness test wherein the aggressiveness of the flux is determined by means of a resistivity test of an aqueous solution of the flux residue. The conductivity cell to be used shall be kept immersed in distilled water at ambient temperature for a given minimum number of hours before use. Resistivity tests shall be performed for both soldered and unsoldered specimen. The specimen shall then undergo corrosive test by being dipped onto ethanol.

              Mark
              Last edited by ToUtahNow; 08-16-2010, 01:55 AM.
              "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

              I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: water soluble flux

                Thank you , Mark and Rick for your informative posts. I will definitely check out your photos Rick. I wonder if water conditions or environment play a larger role in these corrosive failures. As the most popular failure is from concrete here. Its the only time when we can see direct pitting or eroding from the exterior of the piping. As far as the inside , its found on boiler or condensate drain lines. After that it would be the copper drains on urinals. Thanks again.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: water soluble flux

                  Originally posted by SEWER PICKLE View Post
                  Thank you , Mark and Rick for your informative posts. I will definitely check out your photos Rick. I wonder if water conditions or environment play a larger role in these corrosive failures. As the most popular failure is from concrete here. Its the only time when we can see direct pitting or eroding from the exterior of the piping. As far as the inside , its found on boiler or condensate drain lines. After that it would be the copper drains on urinals. Thanks again.
                  The natural protection for the interior of copper tubing is the thin layer of the patina that forms inside the pipe. Without the patina the copper is more likely to corrode. When petroleum based flux residue is left inside the pipe it prevents patina from forming under the flux then add the fact that the corrosive flux is in contact with the copper.

                  Sometimes these leaks can take 20-years or more to manifest. Many times the State will have a Statute of Limitation of 10-years so I am generally only called when the project is 10-years or less.

                  Mark
                  "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                  I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: water soluble flux

                    Mr.Pickle,
                    Next time I run into flux goober(I have cut out three this past year).
                    I'll take a picture(I'm not normally a photo guy).

                    To all others having a problem with water...
                    I'll either get it out or work with it.
                    Never had a problem getting the job done with Everflux.

                    The proof is I've never even used my propress Rick found for me at a steal.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: water soluble flux

                      Rick , maybe if you have time you could repost those pics. I have not been able to find them readily. Hope you can post some pics as well Dirty, would love to see some flux gobbs in a copper pipe that was in service. Mark , appreciate your detail in your reports as thats what the insurance companies and courts love to hear.

                      Though it might take 20+ years to create a flux related leak, there are several other chemicals or environments that can cause a leak in a much shorter time frame. Maybe its the type of flux we use around here that does not cause problems. As I mentioned before Oatey is the brand of choice of experienced professionals and the most popular.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: water soluble flux

                        Originally posted by SEWER PICKLE View Post
                        Rick , maybe if you have time you could repost those pics. I have not been able to find them readily. Hope you can post some pics as well Dirty, would love to see some flux gobbs in a copper pipe that was in service. Mark , appreciate your detail in your reports as thats what the insurance companies and courts love to hear.

                        Though it might take 20+ years to create a flux related leak, there are several other chemicals or environments that can cause a leak in a much shorter time frame. Maybe its the type of flux we use around here that does not cause problems. As I mentioned before Oatey is the brand of choice of experienced professionals and the most popular.
                        It might also only take 3-years to leak but I mostly only do Construction Defect Litigation and they can only go after the plumber for the first 10-years.

                        Mark
                        "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                        I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: water soluble flux

                          I saw some stuff called Orange Crush today at the home center and I did not see any IAPMO approval sign on it. I wonder if its legal to use for potable systems?

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                          • #73
                            Re: water soluble flux

                            I heard the orange crush flux is crap!Anyone ever try Jonhson's?

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                            • #74
                              Re: water soluble flux

                              Originally posted by plumb4life View Post
                              I saw some stuff called Orange Crush today at the home center and I did not see any IAPMO approval sign on it. I wonder if its legal to use for potable systems?
                              orange crush made a big appearance 2 years ago at our trade show. free samples, t-shirts and girls giving it away.

                              this last year, nothing, nada, ziltch

                              not sure if it met the astm b 813 code requirement.

                              rick.
                              phoebe it is

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: water soluble flux

                                They were at the trade show this year. I used one of the sample jars on a job. I thought it was garbage. I won't use it again.

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