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  • water soluble flux

    since 1994 or so we have been required to use water soluble flux on water lines. for those of you in other jurisdictions that still use regular flux, soldering with water in the line is simple with the regular flux.

    it's the water soluble flux that makes it next to impossible to solder with any water, or steam moisture in the line.

    do yourself an experiment. clean the copper and fitting with sand cloth/ wire brush. then try to solder and get any lead free/ flux free solder to stick to the shiny copper.

    well that's what it's like when you encounter any moisture with water soluble flux. all you need is some steam to get generated to ruin a perfectly good prep/ flux job.

    one of the main reasons why i have switched and praise propress.

    in 1994 i was paid by nokorode to test out different water soluble flux formulas and report back to them. they went from my favorite flux ever, to a flux i couldn't use.

    for those that can still use regular flux, please chime in. i thought it was a national code and was required for all potable water.

    am i mistaking but isn't the entire country required to meet the astm standard astm b 813.

    rick.
    phoebe it is

  • #2
    Re: water soluble flux

    Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
    since 1994 or so we have been required to use water soluble flux on water lines. for those of you in other jurisdictions that still use regular flux, soldering with water in the line is simple with the regular flux.

    it's the water soluble flux that makes it next to impossible to solder with any water, or steam moisture in the line.

    do yourself an experiment. clean the copper and fitting with sand cloth/ wire brush. then try to solder and get any lead free/ flux free solder to stick to the shiny copper.

    well that's what it's like when you encounter any moisture with water soluble flux. all you need is some steam to get generated to ruin a perfectly good prep/ flux job.

    one of the main reasons why i have switched and praise propress.

    in 1994 i was paid by nokorode to test out different water soluble flux formulas and report back to them. they went from my favorite flux ever, to a flux i couldn't use.

    for those that can still use regular flux, please chime in. i thought it was a national code and was required for all potable water.

    am i mistaking but isn't the entire country required to meet the astm standard astm b 813.

    rick.
    I think that it is everywhere now. Here in Nunya, it is not enforced so most I see have stuck with the original, and you know why.

    I went a few rounds years back with the Water Quality Association and an Engineer about the "benefit" of water soluble flux & at the time they couldn't provide any real test data/longterm proof for the damage traditional flux caused vs. what water soluble flux would not cause.

    J.C.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: water soluble flux

      Still getting the Nokorode "regular" flux here( Chicago and suburbs),never been questioned on what flux we were using.I bet if i dig around in the garage that I can find some of the old Swift 50/50 and 95/5 flux and solder jars.
      Steve in the trade since 73 doing new residential/Commercial work

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: water soluble flux

        NoKorode makes a liquid flux that is just like the paste flux but less the paste. I have used it and it works great. http://www.rectorseal.com/index.php?...product_id=246
        Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
        A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
        Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
        Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: water soluble flux

          Originally posted by SewerRatz View Post
          NoKorode makes a liquid flux that is just like the paste flux but less the paste. I have used it and it works great. http://www.rectorseal.com/index.php?...product_id=246
          Thanks Ron. I was wondering about it. I'll give it a try.

          J.C.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: water soluble flux

            Originally posted by SewerRatz View Post
            NoKorode makes a liquid flux that is just like the paste flux but less the paste. I have used it and it works great. http://www.rectorseal.com/index.php?...product_id=246
            As hot as its been here my paste is liquid and works great..

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: water soluble flux

              DELCASE your profile picture. Is that you at AJ Coleman?
              Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
              A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
              Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
              Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: water soluble flux

                Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                I think that it is everywhere now. Here in Nunya, it is not enforced so most I see have stuck with the original, and you know why.

                I went a few rounds years back with the Water Quality Association and an Engineer about the "benefit" of water soluble flux & at the time they couldn't provide any real test data/longterm proof for the damage traditional flux caused vs. what water soluble flux would not cause.

                J.C.
                I can show you case after case of failures caused by non water soluble flux. The reason ASTM B 813 was created was because of problems the CDA was reporting related to petroleum based fluxes. What happens is the residual flux whichg does not get washed out of the pipe will sit there stuck in the pipe until it eats a pinhole in the pipe. Years later the pipe gets sent to a lab and the chemicals at the leak site prove to be flux related.

                I posted this news release before but here it is again:

                http://www.copper.org/about/pressrel...tryUpdate.html

                Copper Industry Update

                January 20, 1997
                FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE


                As we are all aware, the only thing consistent in the building construction industry is change. To meet the challenging demands of this ever changing industry, the copper industry continually strives to produce new or improved products, processes and standards for use in building construction. This update was prepared to advise the piping industry of several new standards related to the use of copper and copper alloy tube and fittings that will appear in the latest editions of the major model plumbing codes such as the Uniform Plumbing Code (UPC), National Plumbing Code (NPC), Standard Plumbing Code (SPC) and the International Plumbing Code (IPC). The following four standards may be included in the latest editions of these codes as well as in many state and local plumbing codes.
                1. ASTM B 813 - 93, "Standard Specification for Liquid and Paste Fluxes for Soldering Applications of Copper and Copper Alloy Tube"
                2. ASTM B 828 - 92, "Standard Practice for Making Capillary Joints by Soldering of Copper and Copper Alloy Tube and Fittings"
                3. ASTM B 819 - 95, "Standard Specification for Seamless Copper Tube for Medical Gas Systems"
                4. ASTM B 837 - 93, "Standard Specification for Seamless Copper Tube for Natural Gas and Liquefied Petroleum (LP) Gas Fuel Distribution Systems"
                ASTM B 813 was developed by the Copper Development Association Inc. (CDA), in cooperation with the American Society of Testing and Materials (ASTM) and representatives of soldering flux manufacturing companies. CDA has received reports, from time to time, that the use of overly aggressive fluxes (or excessive application of normally acceptable fluxes) has caused pitting corrosion of soldered copper tube systems. ASTM B 813 limits the corrosivity of soldering fluxes and ensures that these fluxes are flushable in cold water, which facilitates easy removal of flux residues after installation. The use of fluxes complying with this standard should go a long way towards eliminating corrosion concerns related to soldering flux residues. However, joints made using these fluxes are not exempt from proper joint preparation according to satisfactory industry practices.

                ASTM B 828 helps to solidify and standardize what is meant by the term "satisfactory industry practices." As its title implies, this standard practice outlines the steps required to consistently make satisfactory soldered joints using copper and copper alloy tube and fittings. The method outlined in this standard has been developed and promoted by the Copper Development Association Inc. and has been used throughout the United States. The use of this standard practice along with the proper materials should ensure consistent, high quality soldered joints and reduce system failures related to improper workmanship.

                ASTM B 819 contains the requirements for the manufacture of straight length Seamless Copper Tube in Type K and L wall thickness schedules specially cleaned to meet the needs of the medical gas industry. This specification identifies six optional cleaning procedures that may be used to produce copper tube that meets a set limit for internal cleanliness. Tube produced to ASTM B 819 is specially marked with one of the following "OXY", "MED", "OXY/MED", "OXY/ACR" or "ACR/MED" in a color (green or blue) appropriate to the tube type.

                ASTM B 837 establishes the requirements for seamless copper tube suitable for use in above ground natural gas and liquefied petroleum (LP) gas fuel distribution systems installed in conformance with the requirements of the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) 54, National Fuel Gas Code and various state and regional codes that recognize and list this standard. These systems are commonly assembled with flare fittings or brazed joints. Tube produced to ASTM B 837 is special marked as Type "GAS" and color coded yellow.
                For more information on these standards or any other questions regarding the use of copper and copper alloys, contact a CDA Regional Manager at 212/251-7200
                "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: water soluble flux

                  I appreciate that Mark. However, there are literally millions of feet of copper installed with traditional flux, no chemical wash, and no problems with decades of use.

                  J.C.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: water soluble flux

                    Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                    I appreciate that Mark. However, there are literally millions of feet of copper installed with traditional flux, no chemical wash, and no problems with decades of use.

                    J.C.
                    I agree but the problem comes in when the person doing the soldering uses the flux improperly. I doubt you or I would ever have a problem but the Codes were not written for skilled plumbers as they are minimum standards.

                    Mark
                    "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                    I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: water soluble flux

                      Originally posted by SewerRatz View Post
                      DELCASE your profile picture. Is that you at AJ Coleman?
                      Yes it is we all stopped in for a visit .. Interesting place
                      Its so close to were i grew up, i new were i was
                      Your weather was a real break
                      Attached Files

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: water soluble flux

                        This is from the IPC regarding water soluble flux:


                        605.14.3 Soldered joints. Solder joints shall be made in
                        accordance with the methods of ASTM B 828. All cut tube
                        ends shall be reamed to the full inside diameter of the tube
                        end. All joint surfaces shall be cleaned. A flux conforming
                        to ASTM B 813 shall be applied. The joint shall be soldered
                        with a solder conforming to ASTM B 32. The joining of
                        water supply piping shall be made with lead-free solder and
                        fluxes. "Lead free" shall mean a chemical composition
                        equal to or less than 0.2-percent lead.

                        605.15.4 Soldered joints. Solder joints shall be made in
                        accordance with the methods of ASTM B 828. All cut tube
                        ends shall be reamed to the full inside diameter of the tube
                        end. All joint surfaces shall be cleaned. A flux conforming
                        to ASTM B 813 shall be applied. The joint shall be soldered
                        with a solder conforming to ASTM B 32. The joining of
                        water supply piping shall be made with lead-free solders
                        and fluxes. "Lead free" shall mean a chemical composition
                        equal to or less than 0.2-percent lead.

                        705.9.3 Soldered joints. Solder joints shall be made in
                        accordance with thy methods of ASTM B 828. All cut tube
                        ends shall be reamed to the full inside diameter of the tube
                        end. All joint surfaces shall be cleaned. A flux conforming
                        to ASTM B 813 shall be applied. The joint shall be soldered
                        with a solder conforming to ASTM B 32.

                        705.10.3 Soldered joints. Solder joints shall be made in
                        accordance with the methods of ASTM B 828. All cut tube
                        ends shall be reamed to the full inside diameter of the tube
                        end. All joint surfaces shall be cleaned. A flux conforming
                        to ASTM B 813 shall be applied. The joint shall be soldered
                        with a solder conforming to ASTM B 32.
                        "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                        I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: water soluble flux

                          so for those not using the water soluble flux that's required by code, you have no idea how difficult it is to solder when water is in the line. unless the line is bone dry, steam will be generated and there will be no flux in the joint to allow for proper soldering.

                          so now you know why i use propress

                          99% of my copper work is on systems that contain water. but when doing new construction plumbing it wasn't as much of a concern as the pipe was dry. still had to learn to solder immediately as there is no such thing as soldering at the end of the day after you fabbed it all up.

                          start using the proper flux and i guarantee you that you will be a propress fanatic

                          with the old nokorode flux, i could literally solder with water still flowing past the joint using a second torch to hold the water back.

                          the water soluble flux of choice today is everflux and even that requires special handling to work with.

                          rick.
                          phoebe it is

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: water soluble flux

                            I have been using the Nokorode Aqua Flux for around ten years now and it doesn't give me any problems. I've tried other fluxes and always go back to the Aqua Flux. Take that with a grain of salt though, because in my market, I don't work with copper every day.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: water soluble flux

                              Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                              so for those not using the water soluble flux that's required by code, you have no idea how difficult it is to solder when water is in the line. unless the line is bone dry, steam will be generated and there will be no flux in the joint to allow for proper soldering.

                              so now you know why i use propress

                              99% of my copper work is on systems that contain water. but when doing new construction plumbing it wasn't as much of a concern as the pipe was dry. still had to learn to solder immediately as there is no such thing as soldering at the end of the day after you fabbed it all up.

                              start using the proper flux and i guarantee you that you will be a propress fanatic

                              with the old nokorode flux, i could literally solder with water still flowing past the joint using a second torch to hold the water back.

                              the water soluble flux of choice today is everflux and even that requires special handling to work with.

                              rick.
                              Start using PEX and you'll throw that ProPress in the Pacific.

                              J.C.

                              Comment

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