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  • #16
    Re: Might be heading your way next...

    The July-Sept issue of "Plumbing Standards" magazine came today and residential sprinklers is all over the cover. I haven't read any of it yet.

    For some strange reason the Fall issue is not on their website, but the Spring and Winter issues are there.
    ---------------
    Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
    ---------------
    “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
    ---------
    "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
    ---------
    sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

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    • #17
      Re: Might be heading your way next...

      Originally posted by sprinklertech View Post

      Some here may accuse me of trying to talk plumbers out of the work... that perhaps I want to keep it all for myself but nothing could be further from the truth. I don't want the work, I don't want to do it and it should be plumbers who do one and two family dwellings but everyone is putting the cart before the horse. They didn't lay out the ground work it is as if nobody thought this mess through.

      If you want to get into this just make sure you do plenty of research first.


      I feel the same way

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Might be heading your way next...

        in the old days, mid 80's were were allowed to do jr fire systems up to approx. 20 heads.

        we also did wet and dry standpipes.

        i can tell you i've probably installed hundreds of fire hose cabinets over the years and now we can't touch them

        with pex and cpvc systems out there, it's pretty simple to get the pipe into the joist bays.

        like anything else, there will be more floods due to broken heads or poor installs than actual fires that were halted due to the requirement of a sprinkler system.

        rick.
        phoebe it is

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Might be heading your way next...

          Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
          in the old days, mid 80's were were allowed to do jr fire systems up to approx. 20 heads.

          we also did wet and dry standpipes.

          i can tell you i've probably installed hundreds of fire hose cabinets over the years and now we can't touch them

          with pex and cpvc systems out there, it's pretty simple to get the pipe into the joist bays.

          like anything else, there will be more floods due to broken heads or poor installs than actual fires that were halted due to the requirement of a sprinkler system.

          rick.
          You could be right about that. If that happens it will be interesting to watch. What I mean is if they require them to start being installed then they start having more flood claims than fires being extinguished.

          For our state all Codes are interpreted, instated, and enforced by DOI which lobbyists like to talk too. Makes me wonder if they are promoting residential sprinklers under the guise that it will save lives but really thinking it will save them money. Then not considering it might bite them if more floods occur without any fire.

          Then we'll see if the Code requirement gets repealed. If all of this goes down then you will know that the insurance companies care more about the bottom line. (Don't we already know that?)

          Watching....


          J.C.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Might be heading your way next...

            Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
            You could be right about that. If that happens it will be interesting to watch. What I mean is if they require them to start being installed then they start having more flood claims than fires being extinguished.

            For our state all Codes are interpreted, instated, and enforced by DOI which lobbyists like to talk too. Makes me wonder if they are promoting residential sprinklers under the guise that it will save lives but really thinking it will save them money. Then not considering it might bite them if more floods occur without any fire.

            Then we'll see if the Code requirement gets repealed. If all of this goes down then you will know that the insurance companies care more about the bottom line. (Don't we already know that?)

            Watching....


            J.C.
            An insurance company will most likely pay on a legitamate fire no doubt.But just like companies having a loophole to get out of having to pay on most water damage wouldn't we figure they would put a clause in to state you the homeowner are responsible for the upkeep and protection of your own head thereby you hold responsibility for water damage.
            Also wouldn't the same go for a defective or bad install.
            I'm thinking they put plenty of thought into covering their interests.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Might be heading your way next...

              Easier to fix most floods then most fires
              Seattle Drain Service

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Might be heading your way next...

                Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                in the old days, mid 80's were were allowed to do jr fire systems up to approx. 20 heads.

                we also did wet and dry standpipes.

                i can tell you i've probably installed hundreds of fire hose cabinets over the years and now we can't touch them
                The only time we touch fire cabinets or hoses anymore is to take them out. It's been at least 12 years since I've ween one installed. We get the standpipe and hose valves but no cabinets and definitely no hoses labeled "for occupant use".

                Imagine the lawsuit if a untrained young mother of three was to lose her life fighting a fire because the local authority demanded fire hoses be installed so untrained mothers of babies could risk their lives fighting a fire to save the employers insured product.

                In 30 years insurance companies and AHJ's have gone from demanding hoses be installed to paying for them to be taken out.

                with pex and cpvc systems out there, it's pretty simple to get the pipe into the joist bays.

                like anything else, there will be more floods due to broken heads or poor installs than actual fires that were halted due to the requirement of a sprinkler system.
                For about a week I've been looking at pex systems and the more I look the more I don't like. A week ago I would have tried one but today no way in heck.

                Some pex companies act like without them the plumber can't put one in but looking at the product 1)with multiple paths pex systems have to take longer than CPVC (using UL/FM Blazemaster or equal competitor of course) and I suspect the cost for materials is nearly double using pex.

                And then I learn here, never having used pex because it isn't specifically listed for 13 systems, rodents like to eat it? WTF is up with that??? I have been using UL/FM CPVC for over 20 years now. For 15 years I was installing a system every month eacj having an average of 400 heads... that's about 72,000 sprinkler heads worth between $8 to $10 million If you average 6 glue joints per head that's 432,000 joints and we haven't lost any after final acceptance and testing. Yeah, we had our leaks and a few blow outs where guys would forget to glue a joint. "How could they be so.... so... stupid?" I would ask. This used to really upset me until so short handed I helped out as a laborer on a job for a week and you guessed it, I missed gluing a joint which the guys working for me thourougly enjoyed. I never got angry if they missed a joint after I did that. But after the 200 psi hydro we never had an accident.

                When I have my bathroom remodeled (a licensed plumber will do my work) I am gong to specify copper. I don't care if it costs me $500 more I want copper.

                But back to pex, I am getting real bad feelings about pex being used on fire systems.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Might be heading your way next...

                  Kinda off topic, but we still install cabinets, though very rarely anymore.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Might be heading your way next...

                    It seems that Uponor spent a lot of time getting ready to sell their product not bothering to set ground work that would keep residential plumbers away from some very serious liability issues.



                    It looks like you need to do a little more homework on this one. You'll find out that plumbers who use Uponor have fewer liabilities than Fire Protection contractors that install 13D systems.

                    Uponor, the plumber, and the AHJ all share liability in the design, review, installation and inpection of a project. Uponor makes contractors perform flow tests from the hydraulically remote heads at the end of each project to start the system warranty (Flowing the actual GPM as prescribed by the 2 head calc for at least 1 minute). If the flow test does not work, the contractor doesn't get to leave the project until the problem is corrected.

                    The AHJ winesses the flow test and everyone gets to leave the site knowing that the system works. Also for multipurpose systems, 13D requires a big warning label at the base of the riser so if any modifications are made to the plumbing system, Uponor is contacted first.

                    So if I were an AHJ, do you think I would be more comfortable with a system that is shown to perform like it is calced, or with a system that is calculated but not proven with a test? What if a Pire Protection Contractor installs a system and adds 20 elbows in very demanding locations and then does not perform an as-built set of calcs and drawings? How much liability do they have if the system fails later on?

                    Enjoy your posts man.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Might be heading your way next...

                      Originally posted by Wafflefryer View Post
                      It seems that Uponor spent a lot of time getting ready to sell their product not bothering to set ground work that would keep residential plumbers away from some very serious liability issues.

                      It looks like you need to do a little more homework on this one. You'll find out that plumbers who use Uponor have fewer liabilities than Fire Protection contractors that install 13D systems.
                      I wasn't referring to the liability you referenced. The liability I was referring to is for completed operations providing specific coverage for fire sprinkler installations.

                      Laws vary from state to state and I would urge anyone entering sprinkler work to check with your insurance carrier and make sure your liability extends to sprinkler work. Don't assume just because your company has coverage to do plumbing work that it extends to fire sprinklers. You will want to check this to make sure.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Might be heading your way next...

                        Thanks for the clarification. You're right, I have only seen this in a few states (right now only Idaho comes to mind) and each contractor will need to look into this.

                        Not to beat a dead horse but I would still refer contractors to Uponor. I think they have a list of the states that require additional liability insurance.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Might be heading your way next...

                          Both Viega and Uponor are doing design.

                          http://www.viega1.net/firesprinkler/index.html

                          http://www.uponorpro.com/~/media/Ext...spx?sc_lang=en

                          Viega's fees are a little less.


                          J.C.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Might be heading your way next...

                            Uponor and Reheu are the only approved sytems in Idaho, might check with your AHJ first.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Might be heading your way next...

                              Originally posted by Birddoggiest View Post
                              Uponor and Reheu are the only approved sytems in Idaho, might check with your AHJ first.
                              From pmengineer.com:

                              REHAU has announced a strategic shift away from the production and sale of commodity products, and will exit municipal PVC pipe manufacturing and supply in Canada, as well as its business as a PEX plumbing systems supplier in the United States and Canada.

                              Production of municipal PVC pipe will end as of Oct. 31, 2008, with sales continuing through March 31, 2009. The company will also support PEX plumbing systems orders through March 31, 2009, and will provide full-scale customer assistance to ensure a smooth transition into alternative plumbing systems product lines thereafter.

                              “This decision is part of a significant company-wide initiative to hone our construction focus on high-performance polymer systems, which provide quality, energy-efficient solutions,” announced REHAU North America CEO Dr. Kathleen Saylor. “Having paved the way for products that have now become commodity entities in the marketplace, it is time for us to exit these markets and concentrate on advancing the next set of cutting-edge offerings for the construction industry.”

                              The company plans to direct its efforts toward establishing and further defining the market for integrated low-temperature heat source and distribution systems, including PEXa-based radiant heating, geothermal ground loop and solar thermal systems.

                              REHAU will also concentrate on introducing or further defining the market for residential fire protection systems, radiant cooling systems and pre-insulated PEX energy transfer pipe. Additionally, the company will continue to fill a mid-term technology pipeline with innovations including biomass, ground-air heat exchange and rain water management solutions.

                              “We have come to this decision at a time when choice is still viable, and outside market conditions have not yet required us to formulate an urgent conclusion,” Saylor further announced. “It has resulted from careful consideration of the best path for REHAU’s long-term growth, as well as the need to continually address our customers’ dynamic requirements. We expect at the end of this process to be even stronger as a company, and to further exemplify REHAU’s dedication to the delivery of unlimited polymer solutions.”

                              Staff adjustments related to REHAU’s exit of the municipal PVC pipe industry include the loss of 40 positions at the company’s plant in Prescott, Ontario, which will indefinitely cease production of PVC pressure and sewer pipe at the end of this month. In addition, eight positions across REHAU’s North American headquarters and sales offices will be eliminated, and nine staff members will be reassigned to industrial and renewable energy product growth areas.

                              A total of 22 positions tied to REHAU’s PEX plumbing systems business will also be eliminated across its headquarters, sales offices and related manufacturing plant, and an additional 10 employees will be reallocated to other areas of strategic focus. All staffing adjustments will commence immediately, with continued transition through March 2009.



                              Last I heard is that they would continue to make PEX pipe only and were ceasing production of a fitting system. I'm sure they saw the dezincification suits arise and ran. But if they don't brand there fittings, I wouldn't use it.


                              J.C.

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