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Why Facts Matter!

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  • #16
    Re: Why Facts Matter!

    Originally posted by Nevada plumber View Post
    Glad I could assist you with the project Mark.

    I'm glad that the insurance company is going to make things right for the homeowner as he is a very nice guy.

    I have a customer who used to live three or four doors down the road from this home who has been fighting for over five years to get something done with his home. It is sinking into the ground just like this one is. The soil in that area of town is terrible. If any water gets under the home, down it goes.
    What type of foundation is used? 4"+- slab on grade? Monolithic?

    Curious. Dug my share of footings.

    Thanks.

    J.C.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Why Facts Matter!

      Yeah most everyone does monolithic, 4" slab on grade out here.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Why Facts Matter!

        Thank God We don't have that soil. A house settling 18" should be
        a no brainer to look for water problems. Sad these good folks wern't
        taken care of earlier.
        I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Why Facts Matter!

          Mark and Nevada congrats to you both. What a fantastic outcome. Excuse me for my lack of local knowlege but what about the Authorities who control the building process. You mention the soil is crap and yet they allow construction. Ove rhere we have a case where the Council is likely to be sued for $millions because someone allowed building over a methane gas field. It is amazing how regulators only do their job when the proverbial hits the fan and yet they show up and bank their pay checks without so much as a blink of the eye. Oh and when it does all go pearshaped teh old "Dont Blame Me Its Not My Fault" comes out real quick. The issue of subrogation is interesting to say teh least. It happens here but not as much because the Insurance Companies dont want bad publicity. So why are we all penalised for taking out insurance and doing the right thing???????????????

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          • #20
            Re: Why Facts Matter!

            Originally posted by Cleanmen2 View Post
            Mark and Nevada congrats to you both. What a fantastic outcome. Excuse me for my lack of local knowlege but what about the Authorities who control the building process. You mention the soil is crap and yet they allow construction. Ove rhere we have a case where the Council is likely to be sued for $millions because someone allowed building over a methane gas field. It is amazing how regulators only do their job when the proverbial hits the fan and yet they show up and bank their pay checks without so much as a blink of the eye. Oh and when it does all go pearshaped teh old "Dont Blame Me Its Not My Fault" comes out real quick. The issue of subrogation is interesting to say teh least. It happens here but not as much because the Insurance Companies dont want bad publicity. So why are we all penalised for taking out insurance and doing the right thing???????????????
            At the time this home was built the community did not have a Building Department yet.

            Mark
            "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

            I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Why Facts Matter!

              I've worked in this town for the last sixteen years now. We did not have a building department out here until ten or eleven years ago. What that means is there was no process for inspection or permitting. Anyone could come in and slap anything up.

              Even now, the building department only has jurisdiction over houses built after they came into town. I've been on jobs where we have built a new house from the ground up, attached it to the existing house with a breezeway, and called it an addition. No permits needed in that situation.

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              • #22
                Re: Why Facts Matter!

                Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                What we proved was it was a single hot water line with a single pinhole leak caused by excessive flux used on a manifold 10-feet away.

                Mark
                Thanks for sharing this case with us. Good job!! I have a couple of questions if you have the time and are inclined.

                1. In your opinion, how was it possible for the original plumber who did the inspection able to claim he inspected the problem when he obviously didn't excavate the "monolithic 4" concrete" slab? Isn't this clear evidence of malfeasance? How could the insurance company accept as credible a report from a source that didn't do what was necessary to get access to the problem?

                I wonder if the HO doesn't have some basis to try and recover damages for gross inconvenience, and potential unsanitary conditions resulting from living with no potable hot water. If I were the HO I would be extremely angry.

                2. I'm especially curious as to how the metallurgist was able to determine the leak was from excessive flux on a manifold 10' away? I assume the water leaking would have washed away the flux, and the "wire drawing" would continually expand the diameter of the hole.
                Time flies like an arrow.

                Fruit flies like a banana.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Why Facts Matter!

                  Some info that may help someone else. I've used chance helical peirs
                  with great results. We have a 1958 slab on grade home. When We bought it one side was down 3". Had 5 10" helicals driven against grade beam. Jacked up slab,drilled 2" holes further in to fill gap with
                  fly ash grout. Do a read on chances site. We also use them for tie
                  backs. With an elec. drill head they can and have,drilled interior slabs
                  and raised whole homes. Good luck
                  I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Why Facts Matter!

                    Originally posted by geno gardner View Post
                    Thanks for sharing this case with us. Good job!! I have a couple of questions if you have the time and are inclined.

                    1. In your opinion, how was it possible for the original plumber who did the inspection able to claim he inspected the problem when he obviously didn't excavate the "monolithic 4" concrete" slab? Isn't this clear evidence of malfeasance? How could the insurance company accept as credible a report from a source that didn't do what was necessary to get access to the problem?

                    The plumber said he saw green corrosion on the pipes above the the slab and located multiple leaks under the slab. In his opinion that could only mean electrolysis. The Insurance Company believed him because he was working for a licensed Contractor.

                    I wonder if the HO doesn't have some basis to try and recover damages for gross inconvenience, and potential unsanitary conditions resulting from living with no potable hot water. If I were the HO I would be extremely angry.

                    2. I'm especially curious as to how the metallurgist was able to determine the leak was from excessive flux on a manifold 10' away? I assume the water leaking would have washed away the flux, and the "wire drawing" would continually expand the diameter of the hole.

                    Using a high power microscope he was able to identify the chemicals at the leak site as flux. When the pipe was sectionalized it was obvious the leak was from the inside out as opposed to the outside in.
                    Mark
                    "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                    I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Why Facts Matter!

                      Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                      At the time this home was built the community did not have a Building Department yet.

                      Mark
                      So wouldn't building code regulation including enforcement, plan approval, and inspection revert to the State?
                      "When we build let us think we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone. Let it be such work that our descendants will thank us for, and let us think, as we lay stone upon stone, that a time is to come when these stones will be held sacred because our hands have touched them, and that men will say, as they look upon the labor and wrought substance of them, "See! This our fathers did for us."
                      John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Why Facts Matter!

                        Originally posted by Bob D. View Post
                        So wouldn't building code regulation including enforcement, plan approval, and inspection revert to the State?
                        I don't know for out West, but in Minnesota, if you're in a low density populated area (the boondocks) and there's no approved/accepted building code for some type of local government there are no building, or plumbing inspections. I don't know about electrical work. In that case, the builder / property owner is on there own as far as quality of work and adherence to specifications. (If there are specifications for that job.)
                        Time flies like an arrow.

                        Fruit flies like a banana.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Why Facts Matter!

                          Still though, millions of joints and billions of feet of copper with non-water-flushable flux with decades of service and no problems.

                          Just saying.


                          J.C.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Why Facts Matter!

                            Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                            Still though, millions of joints and billions of feet of copper with non-water-flushable flux with decades of service and no problems.

                            Just saying.


                            J.C.
                            Yeah,
                            The guys and myself together have put in over 1500 homes that I oversaw over the past couple decades.If I had a piece worker that did a couple houses for me that was using the fittings to scoop flux into their joint I doubt I would here about it today.We stopped using it in the mid nineties.These leaks are from installs over 10 years ago

                            I wonder which flux it is that I'm seeing rot these hot and cold systems out.
                            I specifically remember nokorode turning to water if I left it out in the sun on a hot day.Some of these pinholes are showing up on the hot water side as well.If it was the nokorode I was using I'm sure it would've flushed.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Why Facts Matter!

                              it's the "laco" that looked like apple sauce that was overly corrosive.

                              hated that stuff and stuck to nokorode.

                              if the joints were wiped clean and properly prepped with the correct amount of flux, there was little chance of long term failure due to residual flux.

                              rick.
                              phoebe it is

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