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  • No Salt Water Conditioners

    I wanted to get some info or brands to check out water softeners without salt. The water isn't that bad. I think it was a 13 on the hardness and a 6 with iron. It is for my own house.

  • #2
    Re: No Salt Water Conditioners

    I just did some talking to a supplier a coiuple weeks ago on one that gave 13 gallons per minute.

    How many GPM you looking for?

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: No Salt Water Conditioners

      That would be good @ 13GPM. What did you find out?

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: No Salt Water Conditioners

        Beware of snake oil salesmen.

        There are only a few ways to remove calcium and magnesium (hardness) from water. Currently, the ion-exchange softener is the only one of these that is practical. The magnetic gizmos etc don't do anything except extract money from your wallet. Claims that they keep the hardness from precipitating out etc, change the molecular structure of water, etc are nonsense. Bottom line, if it isn't going down the drain, then the calcium and magnesium is still in your water.

        If by no-salt, you mean potassium chloride as the resin recharge brine solution.... that works fine. Those are still ion-exchange systems. Technically, potassium chloride is a salt. Here in No CA 40 pounds of that material costs over $21 at Lowe's compared to $4 for sodium chloride at Costco.

        If your "13" refers to 13 grains per gallon, your water is moderately hard. Iron is a problem for water softeners, but they will take it out. The resin tends to not last as long, and you have to us a bit more salt.

        An ion exchange system (conventional softener using salt. either NaCl or KCl) will replace the Ca+ and Mg+ ions with sodium or potassium ions. That amount of sodium is most often not a problem for most folks unless you or your doctor wants you to restrict your sodium intake more severely - it's low compared to the sodium you ingest in your food. Potassium Chloride is what most use that are worried about sodium.

        One thing to know about soft water is that it tastes bland. Not salty (if your softener is set properly)... just bland. If you look at many brands of bottled water you will see that they are typically filtered water to which minerals... Ca and Mg primarily!!... are added to improve the taste. Soft water is not tasty. And it doesn't make a good cup of coffee.

        Another thing to be aware of is that many do not recommend soft water for irrigation. While there isn't much sodium in the water, it does build up in the soil and after years, the levels can create problems for lawn and plants.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: No Salt Water Conditioners

          A friend of mine puts magnets in his shoes, magnetic gizmos on the fuel hose in his car, and some kind of magnetic something on the water lines in the house.

          To the best of my knowledge, he gets tingly feet, soft gasoline, funny water, and that is about it for the the few grand he laid out.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: No Salt Water Conditioners

            Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
            Beware of snake oil salesmen.

            There are only a few ways to remove calcium and magnesium (hardness) from water. Currently, the ion-exchange softener is the only one of these that is practical. The magnetic gizmos etc don't do anything except extract money from your wallet. Claims that they keep the hardness from precipitating out etc, change the molecular structure of water, etc are nonsense. Bottom line, if it isn't going down the drain, then the calcium and magnesium is still in your water.

            If by no-salt, you mean potassium chloride as the resin recharge brine solution.... that works fine. Those are still ion-exchange systems. Technically, potassium chloride is a salt. Here in No CA 40 pounds of that material costs over $21 at Lowe's compared to $4 for sodium chloride at Costco.

            If your "13" refers to 13 grains per gallon, your water is moderately hard. Iron is a problem for water softeners, but they will take it out. The resin tends to not last as long, and you have to us a bit more salt.

            An ion exchange system (conventional softener using salt. either NaCl or KCl) will replace the Ca+ and Mg+ ions with sodium or potassium ions. That amount of sodium is most often not a problem for most folks unless you or your doctor wants you to restrict your sodium intake more severely - it's low compared to the sodium you ingest in your food. Potassium Chloride is what most use that are worried about sodium.

            One thing to know about soft water is that it tastes bland. Not salty (if your softener is set properly)... just bland. If you look at many brands of bottled water you will see that they are typically filtered water to which minerals... Ca and Mg primarily!!... are added to improve the taste. Soft water is not tasty. And it doesn't make a good cup of coffee.

            Another thing to be aware of is that many do not recommend soft water for irrigation. While there isn't much sodium in the water, it does build up in the soil and after years, the levels can create problems for lawn and plants.
            you said it all. This should be copied and pasted to all threads about water hardness and how to lower it. Better still I should start selling magnets.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: No Salt Water Conditioners

              So is Pelican the real deal or snake oil?

              http://www.waterfilter-usa.com/pelic...94f026ac6c092f

              I want to share, that St. Paul, Mn softens their water by ADDING lime to the water, so much so that the water becomes super saturated where the water can't hold the lime. The lime comes out of solution and drops to the bottom of large floculation tanks. At the end of the process they have more lime than they had to start. The St. Paul Water Dept. is able to generate some revenue by selling some of the lime that results. The net result is a significant reduction of how hard the water is.

              I recall in a high school chemistry class where we did something similar using silver nitrate.

              So, while I don't consider their website proof, what Pelican is suggesting as their process doesn't seem so far fetched to me.
              Time flies like an arrow.

              Fruit flies like a banana.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: No Salt Water Conditioners

                Originally posted by geno gardner View Post
                So is Pelican the real deal or snake oil?

                http://www.waterfilter-usa.com/pelic...94f026ac6c092f

                I want to share, that St. Paul, Mn softens their water by ADDING lime to the water, so much so that the water becomes super saturated where the water can't hold the lime. The lime comes out of solution and drops to the bottom of large floculation tanks. At the end of the process they have more lime than they had to start. The St. Paul Water Dept. is able to generate some revenue by selling some of the lime that results. The net result is a significant reduction of how hard the water is.

                I recall in a high school chemistry class where we did something similar using silver nitrate.

                So, while I don't consider their website proof, what Pelican is suggesting as their process doesn't seem so far fetched to me.
                Interesting! I guess you do learn something new everyday!
                www.ClinkscalesSeptic.com

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: No Salt Water Conditioners

                  I poked around the Pelican site. I could have missed it so I'll ask:

                  What's in the tank? What media is used?

                  That should be right up front for a buyer or installer to check out. Makes me frustrated when a company claims something will do this and that but has some hidden "VooDoo" that's not right up front.

                  Great to me if it works. I just need to know how.


                  J.C.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: No Salt Water Conditioners

                    Originally posted by geno gardner View Post
                    So is Pelican the real deal or snake oil?

                    http://www.waterfilter-usa.com/pelic...94f026ac6c092f

                    I want to share, that St. Paul, Mn softens their water by ADDING lime to the water, so much so that the water becomes super saturated where the water can't hold the lime. The lime comes out of solution and drops to the bottom of large floculation tanks. At the end of the process they have more lime than they had to start. The St. Paul Water Dept. is able to generate some revenue by selling some of the lime that results. The net result is a significant reduction of how hard the water is.

                    I recall in a high school chemistry class where we did something similar using silver nitrate.

                    So, while I don't consider their website proof, what Pelican is suggesting as their process doesn't seem so far fetched to me.
                    Geno, A few thoughts on this company...

                    What process is this company using to soften the water? From what I read on their website all I can find is the use of their "granule" that never wears out and is not user serviceable *Alarm Bells*

                    This is from their website:
                    If the water hardness is tested after the system is installed will the hardness level be different?
                    If the water is tested after the NaturSoft System is installed the hardness level will remain the same or even test slightly harder due to the existing scale being removed from the plumbing.
                    *More Alarm Bells*

                    Nowhere on this companies website do they state that this product will actually remove grains of hardness only that their product will make water "Feel" softer, this is a completely subjective term used to mislead the uninformed...
                    *Even More Alarm Bells*

                    The companies ANSI and NSF listings cover the quality of materials used in the devices but are listed in such a way as to mislead the consumer as an endorsement of the systems overall performance... The other certification / certificate is from a German Lab doing a test that is not described and producing a report that is not shown... The WQA" Gold Seal" is tied directly back to the ANSI 61 certification which covers the materials used in construction not the systems performance... *more smoke and mirrors*

                    The companys Carbon filter looks great but the salt free softener is snake oil...

                    Bill
                    Last edited by OkieBill; 11-02-2010, 09:07 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: No Salt Water Conditioners

                      Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                      I poked around the Pelican site. I could have missed it so I'll ask:

                      What's in the tank? What media is used?

                      That should be right up front for a buyer or installer to check out. Makes me frustrated when a company claims something will do this and that but has some hidden "VooDoo" that's not right up front.

                      Great to me if it works. I just need to know how.


                      J.C.
                      I would be interested to see some completely unbiased test results on this technology.

                      http://www.pelicanwatertechnologies....howitworks.php

                      This is interesting to me.

                      <Why does scale form?
                      Scale does not form randomly. For example, scale is much more likely to get its start in metal pipes versus plastics, on rough versus smooth surfaces, on conductive versus non-conductive surfaces, in hot water versus cold.>

                      Heck, I might start using PEX. )
                      Last edited by geno gardner; 11-02-2010, 08:54 PM.
                      Time flies like an arrow.

                      Fruit flies like a banana.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: No Salt Water Conditioners

                        [QUOTE=geno gardner;315695[B]]I would be interested to see some completely unbiased test results on this technology.
                        [/B]
                        http://www.pelicanwatertechnologies....howitworks.php

                        This is interesting to me.

                        <Why does scale form?
                        Scale does not form randomly. For example, scale is much more likely to get its start in metal pipes versus plastics, on rough versus smooth surfaces, on conductive versus non-conductive surfaces, in hot water versus cold.>

                        Heck, I might start using PEX







                        Geno, Are you a Rep or selling this product?

                        I added a bit more to my previous post:
                        Geno, A few thoughts on this company...

                        What process is this company using to soften the water? From what I read on their website all I can find is the use of their "granule" that never wears out and is not user serviceable *Alarm Bells*

                        This is from their website:
                        If the water hardness is tested after the system is installed will the hardness level be different?
                        If the water is tested after the NaturSoft System is installed the hardness level will remain the same or even test slightly harder due to the existing scale being removed from the plumbing.
                        *More Alarm Bells*

                        Nowhere on this companies website do they state that this product will actually remove grains of hardness only that their product will make water "Feel" softer, this is a completely subjective term used to mislead the uninformed...
                        *Even More Alarm Bells*

                        The companies ANSI and NSF listings cover the quality of materials used in the devices but are listed in such a way as to mislead the consumer as an endorsement of the systems overall performance... The other certification / certificate is from a German Lab doing a test that is not described and producing a report that is not shown... The WQA" Gold Seal" is tied directly back to the ANSI 61 certification which covers the materials used in construction not the systems performance... *more smoke and mirrors*

                        The companys Carbon filter looks great but the salt free softener is snake oil...

                        Bill
                        Last edited by OkieBill; 11-02-2010, 09:19 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: No Salt Water Conditioners

                          I still cannot understand why so many are so ignorant to the general knowledge these products simply do not work.
                          Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: No Salt Water Conditioners

                            Originally posted by OkieBill View Post

                            Geno, Are you a Rep or selling this product?

                            Bill

                            Bill,

                            Absolutely not. I have no affiliation, or any stake of any form with any water conditioning company. If I did I would have stated so up front.

                            I don't even have a preference as to what technology works best. (although I do prefer using potasium chloride pellets over sodium chloride for blood pressure /health reasons in regular water softeners using zealite(spelling?) media. Except when someone is on prescription medication which makes taking potassium an issue). But I digress.

                            Since the city of St. Paul water department uses an ostensibly similar methodology I must concede the Pelican claims may be at least feasible. I've toured the St. Paul water treatment facility and seen it first hand. I've worked there. I know the logic of their system and it's real. Thus I can not reasonably dismiss the Pelican claims out of hand. Since I have neither the time nor the inclination to have a Pelican system independently tested to get unbiased results of their water treatment system I will likely never get a straight answer.

                            Perhaps a chemistry professor at the U of M would be willing to offer a knowledgeable response. Do any of you, by chance, know a Chemistry professor?
                            Time flies like an arrow.

                            Fruit flies like a banana.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: No Salt Water Conditioners

                              Originally posted by OkieBill View Post
                              I added a bit more to my previous post:
                              Geno, A few thoughts on this company...

                              What process is this company using to soften the water? From what I read on their website all I can find is the use of their "granule" that never wears out and is not user serviceable *Alarm Bells*

                              This is from their website:
                              If the water hardness is tested after the system is installed will the hardness level be different?
                              If the water is tested after the NaturSoft System is installed the hardness level will remain the same or even test slightly harder due to the existing scale being removed from the plumbing.
                              *More Alarm Bells*

                              Nowhere on this companies website do they state that this product will actually remove grains of hardness only that their product will make water "Feel" softer, this is a completely subjective term used to mislead the uninformed...
                              *Even More Alarm Bells*

                              The companies ANSI and NSF listings cover the quality of materials used in the devices but are listed in such a way as to mislead the consumer as an endorsement of the systems overall performance... The other certification / certificate is from a German Lab doing a test that is not described and producing a report that is not shown... The WQA" Gold Seal" is tied directly back to the ANSI 61 certification which covers the materials used in construction not the systems performance... *more smoke and mirrors*

                              The companys Carbon filter looks great but the salt free softener is snake oil...

                              Bill
                              Bill, Your arguments are rational and may well be valid. However, none of the arguments address the Pelican basic claim, which I suspect is a genuine chemical/physical phenomena. (Based on St. Paul's treatment method) Now, whether or not the chemical phenomena they describe is taking place, or can actually take place inside their system is a different question entirely.

                              http://www.pelicanwatertechnologies....howitworks.php

                              How does the Pelican NaturSoft System soften my water?
                              The NaturSoft media acts as a catalyst reducing the degree of super saturation required to form solid calcium carbonate crystals. By forming these submicron crystals, NaturSoft removes the excess calcium from solution that would otherwise be the cause for an elevated scale potential. These newly formed calcium carbonate crystals then are introduced to the water as suspended particles where they perform the same role as the media itself, i.e. acting as seed crystals further buffering the effects of any changes in the scale potential of the water downstream by adsorbing excess mineral into their structure and themselves spawning the creation of additional micro crystals.

                              NaturSoft maintains the holistic nature of the water; it neither adds, nor removes anything from the water. Yet, it provides most of the pertinent benefits that would ordinarily cause users to consider purchasing conventional salt based ion exchange water softeners. NaturSoft based systems do not require water intensive backwashing, electrical energy, salt or any other chemicals to create these benefits. Therefore, NaturSoft is one of the "greenest" technologies available today.
                              Optical microscope view of NaturSoft resin showing crystal formation at a 1000X magnification

                              What is hardness and how does the Natursoft system address it?
                              In order to understand the operating principle behind NaturSoft's catalytic scale reduction technology (Physical Water Treatment) in greater detail it is important to examine the relationship between minerals dissolved in an aqueous solution and the occurrence of crystalline solids.
                              The operating principle of NaturSoft
                              1. In its practical application, the NaturSoft is operated in a fluidized bed. Due to the media beads "bumping into each other" and the shearing forces of the passing water by the media granules, the micro crystals are released into the water stream. The crystals being devoid of a charge (as the ionic charges of its building blocks calcium and carbonate neutralize each other) now are suspended in the water traveling in the flow of the water unable to attach themselves to the plumbing surfaces.
                              2. Without a doubt the most important aspect of this technology is not what occurs in the NaturSoft tank alone, but rather the fact that the micro crystals that are released into the water stream act as seed crystals fulfilling the exact same function in the water stream as the NaturSoft media does within the treatment vessel. As the scale potential of the water in the plumbing system increases "usually through pressure differentials or increases in the water temperature (heating)" the seed crystals that are present throughout the body of water readily integrate precipitating calcium into their own structure (i.e. the crystals grow) and spawn the creation of further seed crystals in their immediate vicinity. As a result, excess minerals are once again removed to form harmless crystals and the scale potential of the water is returned to a neutral or saturated state.
                              Calcium Carbonate
                              Calcium carbonate is arguably the most troublesome of the "Hardness Minerals", As a solid, it occurs in two possible forms in a plumbing system:
                              1. As scale or limestone deposits: a firmly attached crystal structure commonly called scale. It is a rough, hard deposit that occludes piping systems over time, reduces water pressure, tends to harbor microorganisms and interferes with heat transfer in water heaters and the like.
                              2. As a colloid or sediment: an unattached solid, i.e. a suspended crystal that lacking an electric charge is unable to attach itself to plumbing surfaces or existing scale and that gets carried along with the flowing water.
                              Why does water contain calcium?
                              Contrary to popular belief, calcium carbonate is very poorly soluble. indeed virtually non-soluble in water (H2O). It is the carbonic acid occurring in water as the result of carbon dioxide being absorbed from the atmosphere and / or from organic activity in the aquifers that dissolves calcium minerals. This weak acid leaches minerals from the earth's crust creating dissolved hardness.
                              Calcium and Carbonic acid balance
                              The minerals being leached from the earth's crust in effect neutralize the acid. The result is water containing dissolved minerals that are in some relationship to the water.s original carbonic acid content. A balanced state or state of equilibrium would be a state of saturation with an amount of calcium equal to what would be required to neutralize the carbonic acid. A super saturated condition would occur when the amount of calcium actually exceeds the carbonic acid present; an under-saturated condition would exist when the opposite is the case.
                              Why does scale form?
                              Scale does not form randomly. For example, scale is much more likely to get its start in metal pipes versus plastics, on rough versus smooth surfaces, on conductive versus non-conductive surfaces, in hot water versus cold. Many studies have been conducted on the vulnerability of different plumbing materials to experience scale formation. The plumbing materials ranged from various manmade "plastic" materials, to basic metals like copper & steel and stainless steel, to the exotic like titanium and gold & platinum plated base metals.
                              These studies found that each plumbing surface material had a different rate at which scale nucleation would occur (i.e. the scale getting started). However, once nucleation had occurred and scale had attached itself to the plumbing surface, the rate at which the scale would actually grow was the same regardless of the type of plumbing material. The causal factor for this observation is scale.s strong preference for aggregating on existing scale rather than any other surfaces.
                              Time flies like an arrow.

                              Fruit flies like a banana.

                              Comment

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