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  • #31
    Re: Pex Liability

    Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
    I want someone to explain how they can "make more money" installing pex. Sure, you can do more jobs in less time but all that means is that you are doing more jobs and making less money than if you did a couple of jobs and made more money. The numbers don't work and anybody that has been in this business for 20 years or so has seen the effects of all this fast cheap easy crap. If you can't then you are in deep denial or never had a decent business in the first place. Here's some other things that you can expect apprentices to know nothing about in the next 10 years or so.

    Threaded pipe. CSST and Pro-Press gas will drive the nail into that coffin as more and more contractors and homeowners dictate fast, cheap and easy to the trade. I expect that you will be able to purchase a good used Ridgid 300 on craigs list for under a hundred bucks.

    Copper. Try as I may, this battle has already been lost so those of you that jumped all over that band wagon can thank the industry, contractors, homeowners, home depot and Lowes for making you job so fast and easy a caveman can do it.

    Cast Iron. Before too long you can expect that even in industrial and commercial use, there will not be much need for no hub or hub and spigot so don't even bother to ask your apprentice for those skills.

    Venting. Nobody will have a clue what a real vent is because we can all slap an AAV under the sink and be done with it.

    So as you put your plumbers torch in a closet somewhere and grab your favorite pex hack tool, just keep in mind that with the way things are going a LICENSE will not be of much use either.

    But hey, who cares as long as you are making bank now. Screw the future.
    I find it hard to beleave you are a teacher who would be teaching his pupils new things everyday when I started my apprenticeship in the late 1960`s cast iron and lead joints were the norm clay pipes and cement joints were changing to rubber ring joints and mechanical joints on cast iron then in 1976 pvc came out and cast iron and clay sewerag pipes went the same way as the dodo galvanised iron and then copper were the only piping available soft solder was outlawed because of the lead in it and over the last fifteen years pex has entered the market and copper has fought back with propress doing away with welding and flaring so what is happening with pex is no different than what has been happening since plumbing started and you cannot stand still as you seem to want to do and I wonder what advancements are to come over the next twenty years I have read that in England they are testing waterless toilets where compressed air will send the sewerage through the pipes to the authorities sewer and what will be next??

    PS
    If Ridgid thought like you then they wouldn`t have made so many advancements in sewer machines and cameras over the last ten years and for that matter we would still have black and white TV`s
    Tony

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    • #32
      Re: Pex Liability

      Teaching new things? What teaching? How long does it take to show somoene how to crimp PEX or slap an AAV under a sink? I have a lab full of cast iron fittings and pipe, lead pots, lead tools, no hub fittings and such. I have 6 Ridgid 300's and more hand dies than I can count, over 20 torches, copper pipe and fittings up the wazoo, but I suppose I could scrap all of that and get a couple rolls of pex and some hack tools for it. Yea, I still teach plumbing and I'll probably drop dead teaching "plumbing" You don't need to teach "hacking" that can be left to homeowners and lazy azzed plumbers. JC, sometimes I feel like a lone voice in the wilderness but I teach my kids to have some pride in the materials and methods they use. I explain to them the same things I try to explain here about the perils of fast, cheap and easy. And, yes, plumbing is dying trade. The number of apprentices signing up nation wide is appalling. The wage scale is an insult and worst of all, the only reason we have reached this point is because nobody could see the harm when all these new fast cheap and easy products were introduced. Everyone knows that pex is restrictive. Everyone has read that little section in the code where it says that fittings shall have no ledges or restrictions to flow and yet, with the exception of Uponor fittings, all the others restrict flow. Still the argument is that you use less fittings. Sure, but does the code say anything about "less fittings" and moreover will an inspector bag you if you use too many fittings? The answer is hell no, because nobody want's to enforce the code. For Christ's sakes, nobody knows how to size the crap so the code book convienently skirts the issue all together.

      I teach plumbing, not hacking
      sigpic

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      • #33
        Re: Pex Liability

        Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
        Teaching new things? What teaching? How long does it take to show somoene how to crimp PEX or slap an AAV under a sink? I have a lab full of cast iron fittings and pipe, lead pots, lead tools, no hub fittings and such. I have 6 Ridgid 300's and more hand dies than I can count, over 20 torches, copper pipe and fittings up the wazoo, but I suppose I could scrap all of that and get a couple rolls of pex and some hack tools for it. Yea, I still teach plumbing and I'll probably drop dead teaching "plumbing" You don't need to teach "hacking" that can be left to homeowners and lazy azzed plumbers. JC, sometimes I feel like a lone voice in the wilderness but I teach my kids to have some pride in the materials and methods they use. I explain to them the same things I try to explain here about the perils of fast, cheap and easy. And, yes, plumbing is dying trade. The number of apprentices signing up nation wide is appalling. The wage scale is an insult and worst of all, the only reason we have reached this point is because nobody could see the harm when all these new fast cheap and easy products were introduced. Everyone knows that pex is restrictive. Everyone has read that little section in the code where it says that fittings shall have no ledges or restrictions to flow and yet, with the exception of Uponor fittings, all the others restrict flow. Still the argument is that you use less fittings. Sure, but does the code say anything about "less fittings" and moreover will an inspector bag you if you use too many fittings? The answer is hell no, because nobody want's to enforce the code. For Christ's sakes, nobody knows how to size the crap so the code book convienently skirts the issue all together.

        I teach plumbing, not hacking


        And Thank-You.



        It takes about two minutes to show a lame how to pex.

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Pex Liability

          Originally posted by drtyhands View Post

          And Thank-You.



          It takes about two minutes to show a lame how to pex.
          Honestly, I can have someone that's never touched it soldering in 30 minutes.

          J.C.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Pex Liability

            some of the worst plumbing installations i've seen over the years was not done by homeowners, but by general contractors and unlicensed plumbers working for companies.

            piping materials have come a long way over the years and progress has been made to lower the cost of installation with cost effective materials and labor savings.

            take for example bell and spigot/ lead and oakum sanitary and storm drains. no hub has taken over since the 70's and other than a closet ring or a tie in to an old hub, lead and oakum is pretty much gone.

            threaded water pipe has pretty much gone the way of copper and plastics. although good old american galvanized steel water pipe is a quieter and longer lasting material than modern day copper, especially on pump/ circulating lines.

            modern materials have been positive in more ways than just reducing install cost. hdpe is the pipe of choice for underground gas installs for both the plumber and utility companies. plastics are also the choice for labs and chemical waste.

            union politics have been the reason why california was a holdout on the newer modern materials used throughout the rest of the country and developed nations.

            now california has the strictest lead laws in the country along with southern calif. having the strictest lo-nox water heater emissions in the country.

            so what others see as dumbing down the trade, i see as progress.

            now if only the state contractors board would start enforcing the licensing laws and local inspectors would start throughly enforcing the code, we will still have installations that make both the modern and proven materials fail.

            you'll never get rid of the do it yourself homeowner, but you can get rid of the do it yourself for hire handyman.

            nothing wrong with a modern building with modern plumbing technology and materials.

            rick.
            phoebe it is

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Pex Liability

              Originally posted by DELCASE View Post
              I never put in a piece of pex...How long is its track record ?
              Wirsbo has been manufacturing it in the US since at least the late 1960s and in europe the 1930s or 1940s. I am not exactly sure of the dates but I think they are close. The REP told me the they have has a continuos test of something like 200 degrees @ 150psi for 30+ years at their factory.
              Last edited by Birddoggiest; 10-26-2010, 11:30 AM.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Pex Liability

                Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                Venting. Nobody will have a clue what a real vent is because we can all slap an AAV under the sink and be done with it.

                So as you put your plumbers torch in a closet somewhere and grab your favorite pex hack tool, just keep in mind that with the way things are going a LICENSE will not be of much use either..
                A Plumbing License is supposed to mean you can vent properly and also do all phases of Plumbing the right way and by code. I'm willing to bet that a lot of Master Plumbers couldn't even rough in a house, but yet they are titled "Master Plumber".

                I'm sorry but..guys shouldn't have titles/licenses if they don't know how to do Plumbing the right way, and by code.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Pex Liability

                  Originally posted by JCsPlumbing


                  Nobody, I mean NOBODY, encourages their children to pursue a trade. The first thing that is beaten into everyones heads over and over is that they MUST go to a 4 year accredited university or it is some sort of embarrassment. It does not matter what is the truth at all. I've found that it does not matter how much you make or what good you really do.
                  Kind of disagree with this as..I hear all the time from lot's of different white collar people, that they should of got into the trades. Many of our customers ask if we are hiring because their son wants to break into the trade. The white collar world right now is nothing more than a game of russian roulette...one day you have a job, the next you don't. People are smart in that..you ALWAYS need a Plumber. Whether we realize it or not..we have job security, and the work will always be there.

                  But I think the problem is..kids today are lazy. They also have that sense of entitlement, as society "owes" them a living.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Pex Liability

                    Great post Flux, you nailed it.






                    Originally posted by Flux View Post
                    Kind of disagree with this as..I hear all the time from lot's of different white collar people, that they should of got into the trades. Many of our customers ask if we are hiring because their son wants to break into the trade. The white collar world right now is nothing more than a game of russian roulette...one day you have a job, the next you don't. People are smart in that..you ALWAYS need a Plumber. Whether we realize it or not..we have job security, and the work will always be there.

                    But I think the problem is..kids today are lazy. They also have that sense of entitlement, as society "owes" them a living.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Pex Liability

                      Hahahha you may as well scrap all of it! I wouldn't take that stuff from you if you gave it to me! It would be piled in a corner collecting dust.
                      You can call it "hacking" I call it progress.
                      Also you seem to think that because I'm using pex my jobs are cheaper? Not even close. In fact I've raised my prices in the last couple of years and am now doing more jobs than I ever could do before. Life is good.



                      Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                      Teaching new things? What teaching? How long does it take to show somoene how to crimp PEX or slap an AAV under a sink? I have a lab full of cast iron fittings and pipe, lead pots, lead tools, no hub fittings and such. I have 6 Ridgid 300's and more hand dies than I can count, over 20 torches, copper pipe and fittings up the wazoo, but I suppose I could scrap all of that and get a couple rolls of pex and some hack tools for it. Yea, I still teach plumbing and I'll probably drop dead teaching "plumbing" You don't need to teach "hacking" that can be left to homeowners and lazy azzed plumbers. JC, sometimes I feel like a lone voice in the wilderness but I teach my kids to have some pride in the materials and methods they use. I explain to them the same things I try to explain here about the perils of fast, cheap and easy. And, yes, plumbing is dying trade. The number of apprentices signing up nation wide is appalling. The wage scale is an insult and worst of all, the only reason we have reached this point is because nobody could see the harm when all these new fast cheap and easy products were introduced. Everyone knows that pex is restrictive. Everyone has read that little section in the code where it says that fittings shall have no ledges or restrictions to flow and yet, with the exception of Uponor fittings, all the others restrict flow. Still the argument is that you use less fittings. Sure, but does the code say anything about "less fittings" and moreover will an inspector bag you if you use too many fittings? The answer is hell no, because nobody want's to enforce the code. For Christ's sakes, nobody knows how to size the crap so the code book convienently skirts the issue all together.

                      I teach plumbing, not hacking

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Pex Liability

                        Originally posted by Flux View Post
                        Kind of disagree with this as..I hear all the time from lot's of different white collar people, that they should of got into the trades. Many of our customers ask if we are hiring because their son wants to break into the trade. The white collar world right now is nothing more than a game of russian roulette...one day you have a job, the next you don't. People are smart in that..you ALWAYS need a Plumber. Whether we realize it or not..we have job security, and the work will always be there.

                        But I think the problem is..kids today are lazy. They also have that sense of entitlement, as society "owes" them a living.
                        You may hear from white collar guys all the time but how many of them are willing to give up ther 100 g's plus job that's 40 hrs a week for plumbing which right now IIRC has an average wage of around 40 g's a year and about 1/3 more hours? Do you always need a plumber? or can you head on down to the depot and hack it yourself. If you always need a plumber, why are so many plumbers laid off? If you always need a plumber how come apprentice enrollments are all but dead and a good number of those still in the program will have to drop out because they can't find employmnent. As the economy gets worse and worse, more and more folks are going the diy route because they can't afford a real plumber. ( and they come to these forums for advice from real plumbers that are all too willing to cut their own throats ) Not long ago I could keep a dozen plumbers working 40+ hours a week just doing plumbing install and service. Now to keep them busy and the income steady we have had to diversify into drain cleaning and inspection, HVAC, gas piping, and even carpentry. Like I said before, we are all working harder to make less.

                        I am not against anything "new" it's not the product that is the problem. The problem is that when we embrace all this crap we put ourselves into the position of having contractors, homeowners and our competition dictate what they want and what they will pay. I don't give a rat's azz if PEX lasts for 10 million years. I care that any dufus can learn to install it in about 6 minutes. I care that any dufus can learn to cut and fit csst in the same 6 minutes. I care that the code has been so dumbed down that in short order you can all kiss your license goodby because any dufus will be able to plumb.

                        I.R. so you are charging the same money to install a pex job that you would for copper? Excuse me if I throw the BS flag on that play.
                        Last edited by NHMaster3015; 10-26-2010, 02:54 PM.
                        sigpic

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Pex Liability

                          Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                          You may hear from white collar guys all the time but how many of them are willing to give up ther 100 g's plus job that's 40 hrs a week for plumbing which right now IIRC has an average wage of around 40 g's a year and about 1/3 more hours?
                          These white collar guys I'm hearing from do not make 100 grand a year.

                          It's one thing to work for someone and make 40 grand a year...it's another to be in business for "yourself" and gross well over 100 grand and have job security.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Pex Liability

                            NH - You're missing the point here...YOU as an owner will always have job security. You have to remember that not all of us here have employees and are 1 man or mom & pop shops. That's your choice to have employee's and to find busy work for them. Throw that out of the equation, and I'm sure you would have enough work to keep you busy and still make a very nice buck.

                            When my pop retires..I'll have more than enough on my plate for myself..and that's the point I'm trying to make.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Pex Liability

                              Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                              Honestly, I can have someone that's never touched it soldering in 30 minutes.

                              J.C.

                              I know that I sure would not have someone who has been soldering for 30 min. doing the 4" and 3" mains that we do 25' up in the air,it's not that easy!These architects/engineers in Chicago still love poured b+s joints and swt. solder joints,did 6" type L w/swt. joints for a public school pool a year ago,they wouldn't even accept groove lock.
                              Steve in the trade since 73 doing new residential/Commercial work

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Pex Liability

                                i have seen plumbers run pex water lines that the took the time to run them straight and nice 90* curves but then i have seen the hacks that just run the stuff up over then under things and not care what it looks like as long as the water does not leak and get to the faucet
                                Charlie

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