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  • #46
    Re: Pex Liability

    I had a new construction (modular) job in which the pex was run very sloppy from the factory. Some idiot had run a pex line under a floor joist instead of drilling through it on the top box. When it was set on the bottom box it crushed the pex. Amazingly it didnt break the pex but did pull it off of a fitting. 2 weeks later when we turned water on to the building the entire first floor got flooded. Im sure the mod company learned their lesson because they had to entirely gut the first floor and re-do it on their dime.

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    • #47
      Re: Pex Liability

      I think what we quallified and liensed plumbers are mad about and rightly so is the skills we learned and the apprenticeship we had to go through to become plumbers are not recognized as much as the so called white collar proffessional are even though they could be a paper pusher like a bank teller when we have worked at our trade for many years and have real skills but I afraid that is the future as the majority of people only care about the bottom line how much is it going to cost and the use of pex and all the other advancements in plumbing and loss of skills is just an excuse to blame someone else as the plumbing industry world wide has allowed this to happen and will contiue to do so

      Tony

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      • #48
        Re: Pex Liability

        Originally posted by AFM View Post
        I think what we quallified and liensed plumbers are mad about and rightly so is the skills we learned and the apprenticeship we had to go through to become plumbers are not recognized as much as the so called white collar proffessional are even though they could be a paper pusher like a bank teller when we have worked at our trade for many years and have real skills but I afraid that is the future as the majority of people only care about the bottom line how much is it going to cost and the use of pex and all the other advancements in plumbing and loss of skills is just an excuse to blame someone else as the plumbing industry world wide has allowed this to happen and will contiue to do so

        Tony
        I agree 100%. I hate to say it, but its normal. I have thought about getting licensed in plumbing, but dont think I ever will as I feel its a dieing trade. Around here, NO ONE is licensed. Its all large plumbing companies that hire $10-$12 an hour guys and give them a few weeks on OJT. I know its a horrible thing to people in the trade, but the changes that are happening are a normal part of any trade. A great example of this happening in another industry is computers. 5-10 years ago there were several computer repair shops in every community. They built, sold, and repaired computers, and installed things such as networking and such. Now the computer industry has changed so much that they are all out of business. Computers dont need the same repairs, its no longer cheaper to have one built, software is not idiot proof. Home networks now set themselves up when you plug the cables in (plug and play). I personally know several people who were in the business and arent anymore.

        Plubming is going to change, sure the material may have its down falls (im not a supporter of PEX), but the fact that it is being made idiot proof isnt going away. You guys argue the whole cost aspect to plumbers, but look at the big picture. It is a HUGE cost savings to builders because with new technologys they wont "need" someone who is licensed. I predict that in 20-30 years electrical, plumbing, hvac, and probably a few other aspects on construction will all be under one trade and it will be an extremely easy trade to get into with little compensation. This situation may not be great for plumbers or electricians but society as a whole would view it as a good change.

        One more example.... Cars today are disposable. They hit 100-150k miles and they are crap, the electronics break and they cost more to fix then they are worth. A car 30 years ago was always worth fixing. It was rare for the cost of a repair to be more than what the car was worth. The reason for this is because the electronics mean a "technician" doesnt have to be a mechanic, just a computer reader and parts changer.

        As any trad evolves it becomes simpler, more stream lined, easier to get into, and less profitable and rewarding to be in. Most of you guys are old enough that you should be happy you at least have what you do. I am young and would love to get into the trade but feel like it would be a stupid decision to make with the way its going.....

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        • #49
          Re: Pex Liability

          don't know about the rest of the guys, but when i call someone back such as a doctor, lawyer, or any other white collar person, they treat me like i was the president calling. they don't blow me off and they only put me on hold to hang up with the other caller

          i think the biggest problem with the trades recently/ last 15 years is anyone can call them self a plumber and get away with it.

          i don't want to start the flat rate/ time and material debate, but ever since the flat rate started popping up, the trade went to hell.

          does a customer really care if the job takes all day as they already have a flat rate price. you know they would be very concerned if the job was a time and material job and it took all day for a 2 hour repair.

          i see it every time i go to the supply house. very simple to weed out the sharp guys from the bozo's. just listen to them attempt to order material. 9 times out of 10 it's a guy working for a flat rate co. i know this because i've been going to the supply houses since 1975 and i've seen it happening especially in the service end of the trade.

          i see it when i go to a new persons house and they explain to me what the other company proposes to do. when you give someone the incentive to pay them a percentage of the job, they are going to sell. see it almost every time i'm brought in for a second opinion or to do the job that others have failed at.

          until every trades person is held to a higher standard and is properly licensed, there will always be the guys that want to charge the most and do the least. it's called greed.

          until the public gets educated and stops calling these types of trades people, and inspectors start putting their foot down, there will always be the stereotype that others make fun of.


          eliminate the riff raff and the public will look up to us like they do their doctor. i know that's the way my customers treat me

          rick.
          phoebe it is

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          • #50
            Re: Pex Liability

            Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
            don't know about the rest of the guys, but when i call someone back such as a doctor, lawyer, or any other white collar person, they treat me like i was the president calling. they don't blow me off and they only put me on hold to hang up with the other caller

            i think the biggest problem with the trades recently/ last 15 years is anyone can call them self a plumber and get away with it.

            i don't want to start the flat rate/ time and material debate, but ever since the flat rate started popping up, the trade went to hell.

            does a customer really care if the job takes all day as they already have a flat rate price. you know they would be very concerned if the job was a time and material job and it took all day for a 2 hour repair.

            i see it every time i go to the supply house. very simple to weed out the sharp guys from the bozo's. just listen to them attempt to order material. 9 times out of 10 it's a guy working for a flat rate co. i know this because i've been going to the supply houses since 1975 and i've seen it happening especially in the service end of the trade.

            i see it when i go to a new persons house and they explain to me what the other company proposes to do. when you give someone the incentive to pay them a percentage of the job, they are going to sell. see it almost every time i'm brought in for a second opinion or to do the job that others have failed at.

            until every trades person is held to a higher standard and is properly licensed, there will always be the guys that want to charge the most and do the least. it's called greed.

            until the public gets educated and stops calling these types of trades people, and inspectors start putting their foot down, there will always be the stereotype that others make fun of.


            eliminate the riff raff and the public will look up to us like they do their doctor. i know that's the way my customers treat me

            rick.
            Cali needs Journeyman licencing and mandatory apprenticeship programs. Here in Idaho you have to go to school for 4 years hold a journeymans card for at least 2.5 years of work experience before being able to be a plumbing contractor. Inspectors I think are eligable after 8 years of work experience. Generals cannot do their own plumbing. I started in Cali and there is a big difference here from there. I wish the wages were closer to yours.

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            • #51
              Re: Pex Liability

              Originally posted by Flux View Post
              These white collar guys I'm hearing from do not make 100 grand a year.

              It's one thing to work for someone and make 40 grand a year...it's another to be in business for "yourself" and gross well over 100 grand and have job security.
              How does anyone have the resources or balls to go into business these days. Just how much more can you undercut everyone else in town and be profitable?

              I'm not sure I can see the corralation between flat rate and incompetent plumbers. Regardless of the billing methods, you still need a license and presumably the skills that got that license. Still, I suppose that flat rate does promote fast, cheap and easy but those flat rate guys are using those same materials, tools and technicques as non flat rate guys.

              rick, you are right. There are way too many guys calling themselves plumbers but you must remember that many of these young guys have never even been introduced to cast iron ( either type ) or many of the other old time skills that most of us still have. Are we really willing to license an entire generation that has no clue how to solder or fit no hub?
              sigpic

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              • #52
                Re: Pex Liability

                what i see on these large flat rate trucks are signs saying hiring "techs"

                last time i checked, there is not a classification for a tech. you're either a journeyman or an apprentice. but i guess it doesn't look good driving around town advertising hiring apprentices.

                i know the time hard work and sacrifice i made to get into the trade and 4 years of apprenticeship along with the 4 years of school.

                next time you go to the supply house, just look, listen and watch, then tell me that all the ones at the supply house standing there placing orders are truly licensed accredited journeymen

                nope, they're the "techs" working for the shops that advertise flat rate. know the price before we get started. being around for so many years, i know who's who when it comes to shops and reputations.

                but then again the local, local phone book has 40 pages of "plumbers" with the majority full page adds advertising flat rate. a few even show license number pending keep in mind that these are service and repair shops. the shops that are new construction typically just have a 1 line phone #.

                next time you go to your local supply house, look around and listen to your competition. maybe it's just out here in the big city but i'm sure it's in anytown usa

                rick.
                phoebe it is

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                • #53
                  Re: Pex Liability

                  Rick, what are the things you hear at the counter that are Red Flags?

                  Thanks.


                  J.C.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Pex Liability

                    the tech doesn't know what the product is called they're looking for

                    the counter guy giving plumbing advice to the tech

                    the tech looking for help from others at the counter

                    them bragging about how much they charge the customer to others

                    they come in to buy a nickle and dime item that is everyday truck stock

                    just listening to them talk shop

                    rick.
                    phoebe it is

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Pex Liability

                      Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                      the tech doesn't know what the product is called they're looking for

                      the counter guy giving plumbing advice to the tech

                      the tech looking for help from others at the counter

                      they come in to buy a nickle and dime item that is everyday truck stock

                      just listening to them talk shop

                      rick.
                      I think I'm guilty of all of these.


                      J.C.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Pex Liability

                        The way some of you sound it's as if the world is ending? One thing, if you don't like it then get out and do something else. There will always be a need for a plumber, I will always be busy.
                        I love what I do and wouldn't trade it for anything. I can hardly keep up I'm so busy these days. I use flat rate, I use pex. So shoot me.

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                        • #57
                          Re: Pex Liability

                          Rick, I know california handles licensing a bit differently than most states. Here you are either an apprentice, journeyman or Master. We don't have technicians. Presumably a journeyman has passed the exams and done the OJT to get the license. No doubt there are a few that are of below average intelligence and ability but the same can be said for any trade.

                          IR, why should those of us that have some very real concerns for the direction the trade is going " get out " ? Would things just be ducky if we all stuffed our heads in the sand and let the manufacturers, lobbiests and industry whores run rampant? Just because you are doing well does not mean everybody else is and it certainly does not mean that we should not be voicing our opinions. Yea we know, you use Viega pex and you make 10 billion a year and all your customers worship your very presence. Let's look at it from another angle. You are over 40. You work your *** off. You work better than half of that time just to pay your insurances and taxes.
                          sigpic

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Pex Liability

                            We are mostly flat rate for the most part.

                            When I hear the word "tech"..I think HVAC, Auto Mechanic, Computer tech.

                            Here it's Apprentice - Journeyman - Master.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: Pex Liability

                              Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                              Rick, I know california handles licensing a bit differently than most states. Here you are either an apprentice, journeyman or Master. We don't have technicians. Presumably a journeyman has passed the exams and done the OJT to get the license. No doubt there are a few that are of below average intelligence and ability but the same can be said for any trade.

                              IR, why should those of us that have some very real concerns for the direction the trade is going " get out " ? Would things just be ducky if we all stuffed our heads in the sand and let the manufacturers, lobbiests and industry whores run rampant? Just because you are doing well does not mean everybody else is and it certainly does not mean that we should not be voicing our opinions. Yea we know, you use Viega pex and you make 10 billion a year and all your customers worship your very presence. Let's look at it from another angle. You are over 40. You work your *** off. You work better than half of that time just to pay your insurances and taxes.

                              You're worried about the industry and I'm not. I try and focus my energy on more positive things, things I have control over. I find the direction we're going to be very exciting and I enjoy trying new products and tools, reading the trade magazines etc. Some products I would never use and others I will. I don't think anyone has ever said they are better than you because they use pex or whatever. It's your choice what you want to use. Please don't knock others for their choices and please lay off the personal attacks, it's unprofessional.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Pex Liability

                                IronRanger:

                                Not to chang the subject but I can't help but notice how happy your Moose Icon seems to be. Is that a pic of one of those moose that went insane from parasites in the brain?
                                Time flies like an arrow.

                                Fruit flies like a banana.

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